How to Identify and Treat Mold Illness (CIRS) | Ariana Thacker

Why I Wanted Ariana on the Podcast

you're probably going to find it surprising. There isn't an ICD code for mold-related illness. There's a code for if you got bit by [music] a turtle, but there isn't a code for if you have mold-related illness. >> And also, if you think back over the last like 200 years, there've been decades where people [music] have been exposed to certain chemicals without knowing they were making them sick. So, lead, people were putting it on their face [music] in makeup >> god. cuz they didn't know it was making them sick. And it was only banned in gasoline in the '80s because they figured out, "Oh, we can't even have lead in gasoline cuz that makes people [music] sick." This place gives me the creeps. So, people have been exposed to biotoxins repeatedly, but then you grow up and we have AI and you're like, "Well, we don't have that anymore." >> [music] >> Ariana, welcome to my podcast.

Hi Michaela, excited to be here. I'm so excited to talk about this. Uh before we get started, so we're going to cover mold amongst other things, immune system issues. Uh but I wanted to and I've done this before on my podcast all like a long time ago. But I wanted to bring you on to talk because I think that this is a like bigger problem for people to know about than diet. I know it's missing in a lot of the biohacking spheres. They're kind of onto it, but it's not a major focus and I think mold and people's awareness of mold really needs to grow because it's everywhere and it's making a lot of people sick and they're being misdiagnosed with random autoimmune symptoms.

So, I've brought you here to talk about what you're doing and what you went through and what people can do to fix their health.

Ariana's Background

So, I guess can we start off by you just doing a bit of an intro about who you are and what it is you do? Yeah, absolutely and I think you summarized that super well, so thank you for teeing that up. Um so, hi, Ariana Thacker, founder and CEO of Mold Co. I'm here from a personal health journey, so I started off as a patient first and prior to starting Mold Co, I was a chemical engineer. Also built a venture capital firm really focused on this intersection of consumer and science. So in a strange way it felt like so many of these events in my life led up to building Mold Co and I'm really excited to just drive value for humanity in this way. So what happened?

You were a chemical engineer engineer and you were did you start a VC? Yeah, I started a firm called Conscience VC doing early stage investments pre-seed and seed largely bio health and deep tech. Wow. >> Yeah. Okay. And then did you move to Miami and get sick? That's right. Yeah.

So um unknown to me there was mold throughout the HVAC system. I haven't had a history of health issues. I moved in and in a 6 and 1/2 month time frame of being in this unit I developed CIRS. So just started experiencing near debilitating symptoms. I had just a handful of functional hours in the day. I was largely in bed. I even purchased hospital bed tray to do some work from my bed just cuz of how fatigued I was feeling.

I was having to reread emails multiple times over. You're you're familiar with with all the symptoms. So it presents as something called the symptom clusters online and connected the dots after the fact after I got sick that mold could cause these health issues health issues beyond asthma, allergies or fungal infections. It's a completely distinct animal at the zoo. It it's nothing like those illnesses from mold. Children are often the best philosophers. They're always asking why.

How am I supposed to live my life? What is good, right, correct, proper, best? Beauty used to be considered sacred. What have we replaced this ancient notion of beauty with? Do you believe that truths are absolute or are they all relative? The answers are different in [music] the leading intellectuals. What is it that sets apart these thinkers Plato and Aristotle, Chrysippus, Diogenes [music] and Marcus Aurelius Søren Kierkegaard, Ruth Benedict, Philippa Foot.

Nature is daunting psychologically. He's like a motivational speaker. He's practical [music] in a way that philosophers seldom are. Philosophy begins in wonder. I hope that you can take it with you in a further philosophical quest. >> And work out your own answers to the big questions. So, this is what I think dad has and he's had all his, like I said, we can get into the blood work and everything and how you test for it.

How to Identify CIRS

But, SIRS, if somebody's watching who has weird health issues and maybe chronic fatigue and stuff, how does it present? How does it differ between people? Yeah, for sure. So, I'll run through the list of symptoms and then also some deeper cuts. So, some some people might see themselves as we go through the symptoms. So, the fatigue is not just feeling tired. It's this almost push-crash phenomenon.

So, some days you can feel good, other days you feel like you're set behind. Especially if you work out and you exert yourself. The brain fog is is pretty peculiar. It feels like you're just fuzzy, but it also feels like you're not able to learn new information. So, poor knowledge assimilation. An interesting thing I've I've heard amongst patients and noticed for myself is I would see people speaking English and register that they're speaking a language I was familiar with, but I wasn't able to absorb the words that they were saying. It was like very peculiar.

Other people feel like their brain is on fire. This like inflammation going through their brain and through their veins. Due to the high TGF beta 1 levels, we also see hair falling out. For me, it looked like little furry critters every time I would brush my hair far more than normal. The far majority of patients experience weight gain versus weight loss, but we do see a small subset with, um, pretty extreme weight loss, but most most people weight gain often due to leptin resistance, um, due to mold exposure. Um, we also see gastrointestinal issues, so that tends to present first, this IBS type response where alternating constipation diarrhea. Um, we also see sleep issues, um, frequent urination at night, people having to get up multiple times in the middle of the night.

And also overcompensating by, uh, drinking a lot more water, too. So, this is just this multi-system multi-symptom issue that presents.

Why Women Are Hit Harder

It's not just one acute issue in the body, so you're experiencing the cognitive issues, um, you're also experiencing hormonal changes, especially in women, um, we notice that this impacts three to one women to men so far in clinical practice. Oh. Yeah. Um, this isn't published, but this is in clinical observation, what we've seen is 60% of the women that end up developing CIRS have heavy periods, um, like I'm talking like 10, um, pads a day plus. Uh, extreme pain, um, with their menstrual cycles, um, changes in their period, so it's no longer consistent, multiple miscarriages, even infertility, early onset menopause, etc. So, these are some of the, um, health impacts we've noticed in women that do develop CIRS. And the list goes on and on.

Essentially, it's not just one acute response, and it's not just when you're presented with mold like an allergy, it's not just having a reaction when you're in the environment, it's something that stays with you in this inflammatory way impacting the brain, the gut, the vascular system, hormonal system, uh, respiratory system, etc. That those are basically all the symptoms I had. So, I can like track I've been obviously trying to figure out why did I get so sick as a child and have these autoimmune issues, severe psych issues, and chronic fatigue. Like, what was going on cuz my body was just breaking down and tracked it back down to all every single building I've lived in had severe water damage. And it was just like I lived in two places once I went to university. I didn't have very much money, so they were like terrifying places where the ceiling fell in in two of the buildings I was in, which is like severe water damage and I was not okay in any way cognitively, chronic fatigue, um one of the things I had when I moved and then I kind of got better with diet. It like band-aided it.

So then I was like, "Okay, diet's the cure to all these health problems." And then 6 years into the diet, I think it was 6 years into the diet, I moved to Miami and I started getting some of the autoimmune symptoms that diet had completely resolved, but my diet hadn't changed. I was like, "What's left to change?" And at that point I was like, "Do I have a salt sensitivity?" No, like I don't even know if people have salt sensitivities, but I was like, "Is sparkling water doing it?" Like I have no variables left to play with. I had air purifiers in my house.

My house was super clean. And my HVAC was riddled with mold. And it would like just it destroyed me over like a 4-month period. I did The place I lived before that in Miami was also moldy and I had kind of known that, but really like really nice building. Mold I ended up having a miscarriage there. Didn't know why that happened and then kind of pieced it back together cuz I was very sick at the time. Um but my symptoms, one of the main one was like debilitating insomnia as well as the chronic fatigue.

So like weakness. I was on the couch for like 4 months at the last place when I finally figured it out. But I was like, "Whatever, I'm just tired. I don't know." You know, I wasn't really thinking about it, I guess. But I was waking up at 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning like panicking, being like wide awake, oh no, I'm not going to be able to sleep again, having a heart palpitations. I had heart palpitations really badly, which stops you from sleeping.

Um and then it got so bad that I couldn't do emails anymore. So, just the action of like when you have an email, there's usually a problem in the email, and sometimes you have to do like two types of solutions to fix the problem, and I didn't have the cognitive ability to be like one solution leads to this leads to fixing the email, and I was like, I can't work. And that's that was maybe that was probably the day I figured out it was mold, and then was like, I need a couple weeks off to get my brain back cuz I can't answer emails anymore. I took a break from the podcast, moved, but it was really tricky at that time to find a doctor that knew what this was. The only reason I pieced together it was mold was because I done a couple of podcasts about mold before, and I was like, well, that's not my problem, but maybe other people are sick from it. Um and then realized there were some patterns in the house with like water damage, and it kind of clicked, but I couldn't find a doctor. I had to actually fly somewhere to see a doctor that would prescribe a binder that would start helping me detox.

So, what you've developed with MoldKicker, which I think everybody should be aware of, solves that entire problem. And this was only was it 3 years ago for me? I think it was 3 years ago for me when I started getting treated for psoriasis, but um tell us about what MoldKicker does. Yeah, absolutely. Um one, sorry you went through that. Um and It was great, actually. I spent 10 years trying to figure out my health, being like, what's at the bottom?

There's a root cause. What's the root cause? Going down all these rabbit holes. And then when I finally got sick on the diet, I was like, "Oh my gosh, it's mold." And then since then, since I've done People should know this, too. Since I've done a couple of treatments, I did CIRS treatment, and then I did some gut treatments, which I'll talk about on another podcast, I've been able to eat like healthy paleo foods again. Awesome.

I don't I'm still on the meat diet cuz I still feel the best on it, but if I eat something, it's not like this inflammatory absolute catastrophe. It's more of a normal like, "Eh, maybe I don't feel as good when I'm not in ketosis or something." But it's normal. And that's after I've been on this diet since 2017. So, it's after so long on the diet. Staying on the diet didn't resolve things. It was going after mold that actually ended up resolving things.

Um anyway, sorry. I interrupted you. [clears throat] It's just a big deal. I feel the same way, and I What you described is what so many patients describe as well, where they discover it so far down the line, and often they're referred to so many different specialists.

Where MoldCo Steps In

They go through this ping-pong and sequence of gaslighting, and maybe they go through functional health clinics, too, um where they're just thrown guesswork, and they end up spending tens of thousands of dollars. So, what we're doing at Mold Co is just shortening that entire cycle of pain and time spent and money spent by these patients to find the most evidence-based solutions in the field developed from 30 years of research. And that includes lab testing.

In Depth CIRS Diagnosing with MoldCo

So, we do the Shoemaker um biomarkers, which includes the highest signal lab test for immune and inflammatory um markers related to CIRS. That includes MMP-9, MSH, TGF-beta1, C4a, VEGF, etc. So, these are the markers that are consistently off following mold exposure leading to an inflammatory event. So, we have that. We also have the HLA haplotype testing, too. As you know, there's a genetic susceptibility impacting one in four Americans. So, we test that with a cheek swab.

I love cheek swabs cuz I was really phobic of needles going into this whole journey. Yeah. Yeah, it is nice. I'm like, okay, the more cheek swabs the better and >> [laughter] >> we also have a dust test, too. So, we're looking for some of those fungal strains in the home and prevalence rates for that. So, that's on the lab testing side and then on the care side, what we've done was translate Dr. Shoemaker's work into what's now a virtual clinic.

So, we have our protocol following his his approach starting with the cholestyramine binders instead of cholestyramine we for for quite a few reasons. The second step is an EDTA and xylitol based nasal spray to address marcons in the nasal passages and the third step is VIP, so vasoactive intestinal polypeptide and we label that detox, clear, and repair. So, we're guiding these patients through this journey. There's concierge care where you can ping your specialist at any time. So, we have that on the care side and we've cut the cost there for patients. Our estimates are about a tenth to a hundredth the cost of what they would normally pay going through traditional care for mold related illness, which as you know is pretty hard to access in itself. It often takes months if not years to even get off the waitlist or even find these specialized providers.

Yeah. Wow. No, it's incredible. So, it's telehealth and you're where where are you available and where are you going to be available? Yeah, so we're live in eight states now for care and 46 for labs. We'll be live in Yeah, all 50 states by Q1 2026, so we're on track for that. >> Beautiful. Yeah, we're really excited.

Yeah. [laughter] That's huge. The nice thing about the CIRS, so after going down so many rabbit holes for health and I went down every like I got really far out there. >> [laughter] >> The nice thing about CIRS is there is a ton of research behind it and these blood markers you can actually, if you want, go and look at peer-reviewed literature on each blood marker. I had never heard of any, I would say any of the blood markers. Not Well, maybe a few of them, but the major ones, I hadn't heard of them from having an autoimmune disorder for like 20 years. I'd never had C4A or MMP9 tested, which are super interesting biomarkers. And these These are all solid things people can test that show massive massive problems. And then you can look at the literature and go, "Oh, yeah, this shouldn't be 10 times above the upper limit range.

Something's very wrong here." Yeah, absolutely. Similar to you, I haven't heard of any of these biomarkers prior to getting sick. And what we normally see, too, is that the normal markers tested for autoimmune conditions for um most of the patients end up looking normal. So, it's even more perplexing. You go to your immunologist or allergist, and the lab tests getting um assigned to you show up normal, and you know you're sick. So, at that point, the doctor is like, "You know what?

Maybe it's all in your head, or maybe you just need anxiety medication, or just take a break cuz this is probably burnout." And it's a progressive illness, so that statement ends up being quite dangerous for these patients as they continue to have exposure and ongoing inflammation in the body. Mhm. I think that's what hit like my family. So, we've got some some serious serious genetics interplayed in there. But we had this like familial really terrible depression. Like that my great-grandpa spent the last 30 years on on the couch just kind of sitting there.

And then my grandpa kind of the same in his mid-50s just deteriorated. And it was like, "Oh, well, you have this weird genetic depression. They can't really identify the gene, but it seems to run in your family." And then I and I'm completely positive that it's mold related. And diet helped. I also ended up moving into a house that I think was a little bit better at the same time, but diet helped massively. Helped massively.

Um but it didn't help enough to get rid of the root cause. Like you can't just band-aid it over with dietary changes, which I found out the hard way after like 8 years on the diet. Um but it's huge. It's huge. So you're going to do Mold Co and expand that. Um you also have Lyme Co in the works.

Ariana's Vision For Filling Biggest Medical Blindspots

Yeah, so the parent company for these different um storefronts addressing what we believe are the biggest medical blind spots to achieve aspirational health um is the Immune Co. So our vision is to spin out Mold Co, which we've done. Next up is Lyme Co. Next up is Long Co for long COVID. Nice. Long Co. >> Yeah, Long Co. You like that? [laughter] Um and what we've done to really have this be high signal and evidence-based is also amassed the largest data set in the world for mold.

And we'll continue that trend for Lyme Co and Long Co. So we've amassed thousands of biospecimens, close to 10,000 patient history forms, looking at a 360° analysis of these patients, looking at their environmental history, HLA types, um key biomarkers, past medical history, symptoms, um RNA-Seq data, etc. So our vision is to not just provide the most accessible and affordable solutions uh for these illnesses not currently addressed by standard medical care, but also drive the standard of care through this very evidence-based way. Um just to help humanity get better and um reverse the tides on chronic illness, which um as you know, impacts now 76% of US adults have at least one chronic illness. That number jumps somewhere in the 90s over the age of 64. So it's an almost an inevitability for people here in the US to get sick. Yeah.

Yeah. 100%. Um Okay, a few things. I I spent some time in in Switzerland this year and they've got more like house-mandated ERVs, which take I didn't know this about HVAC. So, when you have a regular HVAC, it just recirculates indoor air. And when I had I hadn't thought about it at all. It was just like HVAC sounds good. I always thought that was fresh air.

It's not. It's indoor air recirculated. Unless you have an ERV attached to it or an HRV or something that brings in fresh air and then recirculates it. So, part of the problem here is a major housing issue where all the air inside you end up like it gets moldy somehow and then you just recirculate, recirculate, recirculate. Um what are you doing just out of curiosity?

What To Do If You Have CIRS

What do you tell like What do you tell people if they end up having CIRS and they figured out there's mold exposure? Do you say you need to remediate? And that's step one? It's It's step one. We also still start treatment if patients are still in the environment if we deem it to be safe, which is the case for the majority of the patients that we're treating. Um fortunately for renters, they have more options than owners. Yeah.

So, they can break the lease. They can um initiate a cure notice to their landlord. They can work with their landlord um ideally to help correct the issues. New state laws are coming out in favor of the tenant now, which I love to see. I think there's a lot of um movement and initiative to continue to support tenants across the US. So, there's that. There's also the last option of just relocating if you're not able to um have corrective measures by your landlord.

Um there's also isolation techniques too, really identifying where the source is and trying to find ways to um and that where it is. So, is that like you think it's a bathroom or you think it's an area of the house and you kind of like You isolate it. >> plastic it off. Yeah, it's it's like a band-aid solution there and always work with an IEP um a qualified environmental professional to navigate that. Um alternatively for owners the only option tends to be remediation. So, we have a network of IEPs um across the US that we refer out to patients um and depending on the patient if they tend to be more sensitive, we also know who in our network is better equipped to handle a more medically informed remediation and inspection too. Yeah. So, it it tends to be an investment, but we also encourage patients to start care early cuz this is a progressive illness and patients do tend to get better even when they're still in the environment on care.

So, >> That's cool. >> we encourage. Yeah, and there's also air purifiers and other things you can do to just get fresh air um as well in the home. So, Okay, interesting. Well, that's less dire. I think I got so I mean, I was sick for my entire life. I got so sick that I was like, if I am near mold, I feel like I'm going to die. Just in general and I was like, how is anyone who's in my situation going to do this without having a hoards of money.

But, I didn't start treat I just left. I didn't start treatment in there. Yeah, I starting treatment when under a qualified medical professional of course, this isn't medical advice. Everyone's a um snowflake in in their journey and um a lot of factors have to be considered and then also um we have noticed improvement with air purifiers, too. And we think that's band-aid until you can get somewhere better, but if that's the best you can do right now in the current state you're in to reach a level of stability with your health and also um it takes a toll on your mental health, too. Just to feel more safe and secure in your home, that's a great place to get started. >> Yeah. I was So, I got an air purifier.

This is before I knew about mold, but I thought I was allergic to something in a condo I was living in in Toronto. And I thought it was the carpet cuz they might have had animals there and I was like, I'm probably allergic to the carpet. I think it was mold. But I ended up getting an air purifier and it was a It actually wasn't a very good one. I have like great ones from IQAir now. Um that I love. But it was just one from Amazon and I was wearing an Aura ring and my deep sleep went from 6 minutes a night to 2 hours by putting an air purifier by my bed and it wasn't even a high-end air purifier.

And I was like, "Oh, I must have been allergic to the carpet." and then didn't really think about it again. But yeah, air purifiers are key. That's significant. 6 minutes to 2 hours? That's huge. >> I was have It was horrible for like I kind of attributed This was when my dad was sick again, like 5 years ago and I was like, okay, it's trauma. I'm like having trouble sleeping cuz I was having insomnia and like night terrors basically when my mom had cancer and life was hell. And so I was attributing all almost all of my like mental well-being to situational. And then I got an air purifier and it increased my deep sleep and I was like, "Oh, so this isn't just It's so easy when you have cognitive problems um depending on how severe they are, but if they're mostly mood related to be like something in my life is wrong.

So, relationship, work, like because you end up getting hyper stressed about everything in your life.

Mental Health Impact

So, you're like, "No, I'm stressed out cuz I'm about to move." or "I'm stressed out because somebody at work is annoying." when it's really a health problem that's making you stressed out about everything. Yeah, absolutely. And we talked about the mental health element of this a bit, but anxiety and depression's really common even um to the point of uh suicidal ideation. So, we we see that in these patients and there's also an interesting um gene that we've noted as being upregulated in a subset of patients, which is known as the trauma gene. Two, and I think that makes sense. I'm not sure if it's chicken or egg, but it's essentially an intruder in your home that has wrecked your health and your life. So, that is a traumatic event that has happened, so it makes sense to me that something like that would be upregulated if it wasn't thought in advance that caused susceptibility to the illness. >> It's a complete scam.

I'm from Canada, too, and I found out how much it costs for like schools in the states. >> Yeah, yeah. >> It's almost unfathomable. Peterson Academy, if you want an actual education, join up. >> The progressives' hope for universal education at something approximating zero cost. That's what we've got. They're the best courses that have ever been offered publicly in terms of their quality of content. Also, [music] the production values are unparalleled. Okay, so have you guys seen So, with Lyme and you're going to put out long COVID treatment. CIRS can be triggered by a number of biotoxins, right?

How Widespread Mold Is

So, mold seems to be the one that is in Do you know what percentage of houses are impacted? So, there's different studies for this. Our best guess is roughly 50% of homes. That was the more reliable studies that we've seen. I've heard estimates as high as 70%, which feels a bit high to me. Um, but I think there's a number of different trends that could support that number. One, increased natural disasters and flooding events.

Two, uh, this move towards more energy-efficient buildings causing more microbial growth in the homes. Um, three, um, the rate of impacted homes ramping up faster than what's getting remediated because this this does tend to be a more significant financial cost for homes. So, I I can see that over time, and if it's not in the home, it could be in your office or school place. 85% of commercial buildings have had historic water damage. 45% ongoing water damage. That's an EPA stat. 24 to 48 hours for mold to grow following water intrusion. So, um I I'd say it's north of 50% is our best guess, probably closer to 50% if not 70. Something that was super convincing to me, too, cuz I was trying to convince my dad. I was like, "Mold.

Mold is at the bottom. I finally found the root cause." Um was one uh there was a huge housing growth period, like over 30 years ago, where a lot of America was built. So, a lot of the houses we see now are old houses that at some point had water damage. So, that makes things problematic, too. What was I going to say about Oh, do you know the stats on dorms and military housing, too? Um so, Not that I'm going to ask you to pull out numbers.

Yeah, so um there's there's we were looking into the military housing um because it's been cited as the number one issue mold is the number one issue on the military bases. We actually went to a a mold health um or a military health conference um to scope that out further. Um there's over 20,000 work orders, I believe, in a 2-year period related to mold. Um there's a number of these military families going to DC looking for reform. Change the air is also really leading in um to help the military families, too. There's Operation Counter Mold as well. So, there there is a lot more um attention being focused on uh the military bases.

And then, for the school systems and the universities, I am noting an increase in uh lawsuits. Um recently, there was a $35 million claim by uh students in the dorm. And we also get a number of um emails from concerned parents for their kids in these different universities. And I'm also hearing it um from different uh law firms, as well. So, I think we're going to see an uptick in the um legal claims by university students against universities for mold exposure in the dorm similar to what happened to you. Um and I also think there's going to be increased um repair of the basis. So, there's another data point there, too.

Um Dr. um Heyman um who's a shoemaker certified physician um partnered with NORMI um which is a big organization that helps certify inspectors and remediators to um help do something on the military bases. I think it's creating informed guidelines to reduce mold exposure for um for our servicemen and women, which makes sense in terms of military readiness. If you're getting exposed to mold, you're probably not your best self. Um so, >> it I think there's a economic incentive there, as well. Oh, that's good. So, going back to the like long COVID other things that can trigger immune responses, what do you have any idea what percentage of people exhibit CIRS that haven't been exposed to mold, that it's just been Lyme or long COVID? Or is mold usually inter- like twined with other kind of infections?

Yeah, that's a really great question and it it's something we're trying to better understand, too. Most of the um published works in the space have been on the CIRS water damage building subtype. Um there's a little bit on Pfisteria and Ciguatera and dinoflagellates and some of these other biotoxins, as well. Um there's this thesis, as well, from our team that um COVID was a priming event for worse outcomes for mold exposure, too. And what we've also noticed with these patients, especially those um further um progressed in the illness, is they tend to have a number of these um microbial um not infections, but exposures. Like we see um upregulated um Epstein-Barr virus, uh, the Lyme antigens, um, Bartonella antigens. So, we're starting to see these patterns in these patients, um, later stage as well, um, parasites, etc.

So, >> Yeah. I think there's something there. We we're not entirely certain what's going on, but it seems to be this concept of, uh, microbial burden over time leading to worse outcomes for patients that are inflammatory in nature. But, I I think mold is is a very large, um, percentage of the patients impacted and that tends to be the right starting point for these patients, too. And hence why we're starting with mold co versus, um, with Lyme co. Yeah. So, you'd recommend people that have Lyme as their primary diagnosis or long COVID as their primary diagnosis to just look into, I mean, they might as well do the CIRS blood work at least, but mold exposure.

Yeah, and, um, the CIRS blood work, too, it's it's sensitive, but not specific for the illness. So, um, so, it's more of a checklist. So, you have to have, um, exposure, often, um, that's mold in the home, the representative symptoms, too, the symptom clusters we discussed, and then also the laboratory testing. Um, when you include all of that with the genetic susceptibility, too, which is, um, specific for mold-related illness is what we've seen. Um, it's over 90% of patients that have the same HLA, um, haplotype get sick with CIRS when they're exposed to mold, then that paints the picture reinforcing that mold could be at the root. Um, I I think a lot more diagnostics are needed if you want to get so personalized and so specific, but I also think starting with mold and really testing that out is a great initial step. And over time, um, us as a company will layer on, uh, more specificity with our lab testing and treatments as, um, we build out these different storefronts.

Yeah. I mean, that's also what's super exciting about mold co and your, like, companies and parent company are and everything is the more people sign up go through it, the more data you have to help more people. Which is like what is so needed. Is the treatment for long COVID and Lyme that end up presenting with CIRS symptoms, is it the same treatment as mold treatment? Um, this is a tricky question cuz I there's there's answers I'm getting from our team and different providers in the space and then where we want to take the company to. So I do want us to do a lot more research first and really scope out the best and most efficacious and safest possible solution.

Mold, Long COVID, Lyme

So I think it'll be a meeting of the minds, but what we're seeing right now in clinical practice for post-Lyme syndrome different from acute Lyme and for long COVID, we are seeing some resolution of symptoms following the Shoemaker protocol, but I do want to caveat that with we want just a lot more research in the space and we'll do our diligence and really understand what's the best possible solution for these patients cuz there is a lot of really interesting research happening now across prominent universities and private research groups and Mount Sinai too we're tracking at a number of independent researchers. So we're just surveying the field and seeing what the right path forward is. How fringe is this? Like how much is the government aware of this? How much is mainstream medicine aware of this? Like I know that from my experience, if you go to a regular doctor they're just like you're insane if you say mold is making you you can be allergic to it like a normal tree allergy type thing, but it can't destroy your immune system. Basically, that's like fringe.

So but you're more you're more into like the research and what's being done at hospitals and things. So how much is this infiltrating like mainstream medical people? This year has been a turning point for for that question for many reasons. One, George Washington University just launched a program for this following the Shoemaker protocol and Shoemaker approach. Yeah, so I'm pretty sure that's the first medical program focused on this that was this year. So Dr. Shoemaker, our founding physician, is very much a part of that.

So that's pretty cool. Wow. Yeah, and I think there's just been an enormous cultural awakening happening now. A number of different providers and clinics have reached out to us wanting to learn and and stay educated. They actually serve as some of our referral partners, too. Um I I believe different governmental research organizations are now interested in this because one of those has reached out to us. So it's an area that they're looking to scope out further.

And I think a lot of our research, too, will help ignite this field cuz once you see that evidence and it's undeniable, how could there not be resources attributed towards this and better health? Um this year was a turning point in in the medical community and the scientific community. Not to say there aren't skeptics. I think there will always be skeptics in in the near term, but I think that opinion is shifting really quickly. Well, that's really promising. Yeah. It makes so much more sense.

Like something there's so many people trying to figure out like what's going on with America. And like I said, for years I was like, well, it's the diet. And I think a lot of people still think that and there are massive problems with the diet and there's a mass massive problems about how much processed foods people are eating and that definitely contributes to things.

Mold & Metabolic Health

But once I learned what mold can do to leptin to increase hunger um and saw that happening to people who were eating healthily and still getting sick, was like, okay. What if part of the reason people are having such I mean what's your opinion on this? Do you think mold is a big factor behind the serious obesity epidemic we're seeing? Um like leading people to eating more processed foods and sugar and things cuz it's a it's a fungus. It's like you know, I felt like my house was eating me when I was in my house in Miami. I was like I can't get off the couch. I think it was just trying to decompose me from the from the inside out. >> way.

Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] Super weird and I'm Yeah, my thought on that too is that it's a highly intelligent microorganism that really understands our biology like we co-evolved with it too. So I'm like this is like a stealth sniper that has infiltrated my systems and now wreaking havoc. [laughter] So my mind yeah, same wavelength there. Um it is our medical teams' opinion so Dr. Shoemaker, Dr. Scott McMahon and others that um mold is a significant um factor in driving the obesity issues that we have here um largely due to this leptin resistance concept. Um I don't have firm data to say either way but we do see that with sirs and we estimate 25 million Americans are um severely impacted.

So that's quite a bit and we also see um mold being at the root of neurodegenerative issues. There's um you know, Dr. Dale Bredesen talks about inhalational Alzheimer's and microtoxins being at the root of that. We see that in um the research too and IBS and fibromyalgia and MECFS etc. So it's our thesis that yes, um obesity yes, um several these other chronic conditions and yes to the mental health um issues too and the NIH just updated their website as well to now account for these non um um infection allergy asthma related health issues due to mold. It's now citing the immune and inflammatory response and the mental health issues as well. So, the NIH just updated that this year too.

Yeah. On the old website. I I know there've been some recent studies on Parkinson's and exposure to pesticides and an increased risk increased risk of Parkinson's depending on where you live and that research is pretty solid. I found research when I was doing a deep dive cuz I couldn't believe it was mold. I was like that's it's the air. That's crazy. Um and there's there's a lot of solid research under different names around the world for some sort of inhaled neurodegenerative disorder.

So, I remember there's there were were quite a few peer-reviewed studies on sick building syndrome. So, it wasn't called CIRS, it was sick building syndrome. There was something I think out of Europe that was wet and dampness syndrome. It was something like that. And so, it turns out which was I just it's shocking how at the forefront you are with this because it's named different things around the world and they're like, well, we don't really know what's going on. It's this weird like it's kind of like people decompose honestly which is what and I know that sounds out there, but it's kind of what mold does. Um but it's under a whole bunch of different names and there's hordes of studies on them.

I listed them on my website. So, they're all listed all the ones I could find um on biotoxin.com cuz I was like compared to diet research there's so much research here on like toxin caused neurodegenerative disorders and it and it's scary. Like people especially people are more who are more health-minded, but everybody should be aware that like you can fix your diet. You can fix a whole bunch of the thing of things and if you don't fix your air and you've been sick in the past from this, that you can still decline, which is crazy. It's crazy, and I also love that you connected the dots in that way. You're probably going to find this surprising. There isn't an ICD code for mold-related illness.

Turtle Bites or CIRS, Which is More Dangerous?

There's a code for suspected exposure, but not the health impacts of that, and there's a code for if you got bit by a turtle, but there isn't a code for if you have mold-related illness in any way, shape, or form, despite all these different names. Is that wild? No, that's crazy. And also, if you think back, I was thinking think back over the last like 200 years, there've been decades or hundreds of years where people have been exposed to certain chemicals without knowing they were making them sick. So, lead Oh, yeah. >> Like back back in the day, a long time ago, people were putting it on their face in makeup cuz they didn't know it was making them sick. And it was only banned in gasoline in the '80s because they figured out, "Oh, we can't even have lead in gasoline cuz that makes people sick." And then there was asbestos, which was put in like every house, basically.

I had relatives, like great aunts, these are people I didn't know, great aunt and uncle that died from asbestos poisoning cuz he worked with asbestos and his wife washed his clothes, and that was enough to get them both. So, people have been exposed to biotoxins repeatedly, but then you grow up and it's like 2025 and we have AI, and you're like, "Well, we don't have that anymore." And that's just seems to not be true, which is just I don't know. It's crazy. But, it makes more sense than, "Oh, your entire population is just dying." It makes more sense that maybe everyone's being exposed to something that they're not aware of. Yeah, absolutely.

And the ripple effects from that are are significant. Um like how do we retool our entire infrastructure if if this is true? And it's huge if true, right? If this is at the root of so many different chronic conditions, then we would have to essentially rip out and replace so much of what we've built out here and that's just an intractable problem, right? Like how do we even solve something like that? So, I I I think there's ignorance is bliss is a big part of this like subconscious block from even wanting to address the problem. >> Definitely. Right?

Like you almost don't want to know, but you you you have to know and your family has to know cuz this is a progressive illness. Yeah, I agree. That was kind of Dad's response when I was like this percentage. So, the data I read was like 50 to 80% of houses. Yeah. And I was like it's every house cuz I was just sick all the time. So, I was like they're all water damaged.

But even 50% of houses is catastrophic and he was like so if 50% of houses are impacted and one in four people can get very sick, although no one, even people without the genetics probably shouldn't be living in a moldy house. Like it doesn't make you invisi- invincible to mold. You maybe just don't get sick as fast. But he was like what does that mean for like America and society? How are you going to fix that? Like how are you going to fix it? But then you guys popped around and so you're like trying to fix it, which is cool.

Yeah, and I love the innovation that's happening on the environmental side. I I think the environmental side is is a more complicated problem to solve. Every building is so different. There's so much dramatic irony in terms of what was built and it may not match up with the drawings and it may even be in the building materials initially used left outside in the rain or maybe a single loose nail head on your roof or flashing not properly installed. Like there's just so much you don't know and the the cost and time is is so intensive to have someone come in and scope out every nook and cranny and really figure that out.

Some Promise For Awareness and Solutions

But I think there's some really interesting um solutions being introduced. It's still It's still getting developed. Like, I haven't seen anything that's like the savior or the holy grail opportunity, but I I think it's coming. And now with more national attention on this issue, I think there's going to be a whole crop of founders and entrepreneurs and builders really trying to help humanity in this way. So, I'm I'm just really excited about that and maybe this won't be such an enormous, um, problem where we just want to turn a blind eye and not even address it at all. Mhm. Yeah, I agree.

I mean, things are looking a lot more promising than they were 3 years ago. Like, you popped up, so now people can get telehealth. So, labs are easier to access. That's huge. So, I think anybody who has a weird chronic illness should get their labs done and see because that was my problem and it took me I've been trying to figure out since 2015. So, it took It took like, well, I guess 8 years of really solidly digging. Yeah.

And I was living with air purifiers. So, I was like, my air is clean. But because I had was so sick prior to that, that wasn't good enough for me. So, I just I didn't think about it, but it took me 8 years to figure out and it turns out it was mold. And that's why my family has been sick. And my brother wasn't sick. So, we never thought, "Oh, it's the house."

My dog was sick. Yeah, the dogs I was sick. My mom was sick. My dad was sick and my brother was fine. And so, you don't think, "Well, you're all being exposed to the same thing." Like, he lived in the black mold dungeon basement I grew up in. >> Black mold. Yeah.

You know what happened? They found out I We lived in We like moved into a place that was built in, I think, 1915. Like, a semi-detached place in Toronto. And my parents gutted the whole thing and rebuilt it and dug out the basement. And behind the drywall, a plumber left a cap off a pipe. And no one figured it out for 18 years. So, when they finally tore out the basement, once we left, my mom redid the basement and took out the drywall and it was black mold all around the basement and that's where we grew up.

Wow. >> Which is like one cap left off behind drywall. Like it's so it's crazy. People should also be more educated on on buildings cuz you move in and you're just like it looks pretty and that's about as much as people know about buildings which turns out it's kind of boring but it's kind of like learning taxes. You kind of need to know. >> You need to know. >> is a little bit more important I would say. Yeah, you need to know. Um and I'm seeing more home buyers optimizing for requiring a mold inspection before signing anything. Um you touched on a really important point not everyone in the household is impacted the same. >> Yeah.

Um definitely pay attention if someone's getting mysteriously sick in your home. That could be the canary in the coal mine. Right? Um don't wait until the whole family's sick or until it's um too too far along. Um and yeah, I I think also knowing some of the common signs even in the absence of visible mold like that earthy musty odor is really important or by proxy like like paint peeling, cracks, there's just a long checklist of these different things to be aware of that indicates that water damage happened. Even high indoor humidity above 70%. Um that's a telltale sign there could be a hidden mold issue too.

In the HVAC systems if you see dust um especially accumulating on the outside of of the vents, that's what um happened to me. It was uh dust is essentially organic matter that's mold food. I talk about the the mold triangle. You have uh water intrusion, lack of um air flow and and dust all combined and now you have a situation that's prime for microbial growth and um that also includes like the endotoxins and some of these other bacterial species too. It's not just the mold. So just getting more uh fluent on the dynamics of the space you're living in and most Americans spend 90% of their time indoors, so it's it's worth optimizing for. Yeah.

Definitely. Okay, let me see. We covered a bunch. Now I can get to my list of questions I actually had prepared. Let's see. Oh, one thing. Um have you guys figured out so a lot of people think black mold Mhm. is the bad one.

And the other molds are the fine ones. What's the truth here? Uh several there are several bad molds. Um some are worse than others, but um we love the HERTSMI-2 test. Um we love the ERMI test. You get a score of how those inflammation-causing mold species map to human health data, too. So there's just way more molds, and it's not just the molds, it's also their fragments, the microtoxins, the VOCs, um some of these bacterial species, too.

There's emerging research now from our uh founding team and some of our clinical research partners around endotoxins and actinobacteria. So the issue is far greater than that, and even air spore trap sampling won't pick up on many of the fragments, and we think there's possibly a hundred times the level of the fragments in the air, too. So it's this particulate matter that you're also inhaling. Um the list the list goes on and on, but I I wouldn't have the mindset that oh, if it's not black mold, it's not harmful to me. We it's just not the case. Yeah. Um testing.

So that house that like destroyed my health in Miami, we had a mold inspector go in. I don't know how some of these people get jobs cuz they have no idea what they're doing. They just look around, they're like, well, everything's not covered in mold, so you're good, which is basically what my house inspector did. Um but what's the problem like what's the proper way to test a house? Because most my experience was you can't just hire a mold testing company cuz most of them have no idea what they're doing. So, how do you do it? I think that's true.

I would look for someone um certified. There's Normi certification, IICRC, ACAC. So, find someone who's stacked in certifications. Find someone who's very highly rated. It's all they do. It's not a subset of a a pest company. Um try to avoid that.

It's usually a good sign if your inspector is not on time and too busy to return your calls. Um especially if they're highly rated, that probably means they're really in demand and really good and have a lot of word of mouth as well. Um find someone who has a complete tool set. Um it's not just a visual inspection. Um they're they are doing the air spore traps sampling. Sure, you shouldn't just rely on that, but the bulk testing too. They're using a thermal gun behind the walls.

They're really um moving things around. Yeah. Um they're also looking for the signs um within the home, not just pure visible molds, just some of the signs we mentioned like the peeling paint. Um they're looking at the common places like under the sink in the kitchen. Um I would also couple all of that with a dust test, too. Um it's important. So, then you get a historical um fingerprint of of everything that room has been exposed to.

Try to keep it to one test per room. And the dust test really quick is just a uh Swiffer pad that you wipe down different surfaces with. Try to get at least 10 different surfaces. Um saturate the Swiffer pad and then mail that in and that's a test that we offer as well and we believe that also helps pick up some of these um hidden mold issues, too. Yeah, that's smart. Um have you heard So, if people are overwhelmed, they should just get blood work done and start there cuz I know the whole thing is pretty overwhelming and you're like, "This is a huge problem." Mhm.

Um one of the tricks I've heard, so tell me if this is true, is if you look in the back of toilets, it's where everywhere I grew up was kind of like black in the back of toilets. And these are clean houses, but I just thought that's what happened. But is that a representation? So, apparently when you flush the toilet, it drags in air from the bathroom. >> Mhm. And if your air is full of these fragments or mold, then it'll suck into the back of your toilet and start growing in the back of your toilet cuz there's water there. Have you heard about that for checking out houses? It's good for when you're renting, too, cuz if it looks clean and then you lift up the toilet tank and there's mold in it, you're like, "Oh, air's probably moldy."

Oh, interesting. Um a couple of the inspectors I've hired have have looked there, but um that that makes total sense to me and um I also think if you have a sump pump or it smells like dirty diapers or there could be like a sewage issue, that's also another um source of biotoxins, specifically endotoxins, too, and and that should be investigated further. So, not just thinking mold, but also thinking, "Okay, is there could there be a sewer gas issue or sewage line issue or some sort of other problematic situation in the home um where you could get exposed to other biotoxins. Yeah, that totally makes sense. That was So, there's I've got a group on Facebook that has like 30,000 people and they're all only eating meat, and I'm pretty sure they all have CIRS. I think that's like that's the pattern there cuz it's always been like, "Why does this seem to work? Like, why does the diet seem to work for this random array of people?"

And it does, like, great band-aid, but um doesn't solve the root problem. So, I met my husband and he was on the diet. Um But he didn't have an autoimmune disorder. It was mostly like he had massive amounts of weight gain as a teenager and caused serious cognitive issues. But he was kind of the sick kid in his house and he had a whole bunch of siblings. Um but it turned out he was next to the bathroom and a pipe had broken in the bathroom and leaked under his floor. So, under his floor had water damage and they kind of blew it out with a fan, which is what my parents did in the basement when we had massive flooding one time as well with like this much water, and then they just like dry it because that's which isn't what you have to do if you have flooding.

This is we could also cover this. Like we've been You basically have to cut out the drywall. Is that what you've seen? I Yeah, our team loves John Banta's approach to the space, and it's really big on removal. So cutting out and not using biocides. We have a concern around some of the chemical treatments because it creates more fragments and these dead species that we think are actually could be more problematic than even the live molds.

Remediation Pitfalls

So what we've seen with patients even post remediation especially if there's in a small particle cleaning or a thorough cleaning after is that they they could get sicker after remediation. And you also touched on a couple of other interesting points too. Under the flooring, what we've seen even with new builds is that they lay down like the LVP like the nice vinyl flooring. And then the the concrete still wet when they do that cuz these contractors are in a rush to get the work done. And that could be a hidden mold issue too. Wet concrete? >> Yeah, under the flooring. Whoa, that's awful. >> Yeah.

Yeah, so there's there's just so many different things to look into as a homeowner or even a renter. And crawl spaces also very common. Basements very common. So just knowing the anatomy of your home and where the problematic sources could be just to help tailor the investigation some more if you are experiencing symptoms. So if you if people find that overwhelming, you've seen people Have you seen people recover if they don't do anything to their house? Um if they're sick and they have CIRS, the issue tends to get worse for those patients. Um I've seen patients who largely do not have the HLA genetic susceptibility get out of the home and then eventually recover.

That's not really scientific. It's like very anecdotal. It's like I meet a lot of people who have had mold exposure and they're telling me their stories and I see that pattern. And I've also heard people who have the who don't have one of those genetic susceptibilities get out of the environment and they still don't feel fully themselves. Like they're there were some alterations in how they're feeling too. So I think it's a pretty large set of randomness that I've I've heard but for the most part if you're in the environment you're sick. You're probably not going to get better if you stay in that environment and it'll likely get worse and deteriorate over time. >> Okay.

I know that's like the harsh reality but that's how you know it's not a scam too cuz people aren't saying hey take this supplement and all your problems will be solved. Like no, you can't live in the environment with the severe water damage and mold growth. You have to get rid of the mold growth. Then you have to do the treatment especially like you said if you have these genetic susceptibility. And the treatment so you went over it. It's the binder and you guys suggest colesevelam instead of cholestyramine. I took cholestyramine.

It was brutal. It works. But you're treating people with colesevelam instead. Yeah. There's a few reasons for that. The field has largely moved towards colesevelam. One better tolerated.

You tend to have less constipation or some of the side effects which overall tend to be mild for the far majority of the patients. Two, it's an oral tablet versus the suspension which it's kind of gritty and sandy right? Cholestyramine is kind of hard to take. There's also not a great reminder for when to take cholestyramine cuz it's in between meals. It's not before meals, so that's also great for cholestyramine where you're like, "Okay, I'm about to take a meal. Let me just take a cholestyramine binder." Um and then the last point, too, is that we notice very similar symptoms uh improvement um within a few weeks of each other.

I know there's um a lot of uh commentary online around um a quarter of the binding sites, but um one um Dr. Shoemaker and Dr. McMahon um have never stated that, and two, the binding sites don't map to symptoms improvement, and three, we've seen that consistently with patients where it's about a few weeks to have similar uh recovery. Um then when you pair with all those other reasons, it makes sense why the field's now moving towards uh cholestyramine versus cholestyramine. I I switched to cholestyramine. Yeah, I love cholestyramine. >> as enjoyable as drinking sand is, >> [laughter] >> which is not at all. Um I switched over, and it yeah, it is way it's way easier.

So, that's good to know. So, they Ideally, you fix the mold exposure. Well, you do the blood work to see what's going on. Fix mold exposure and start treatment at the same time, and it's cholestyramine initially. And then, what's the next step? So, the next step after their symptoms plateau, usually, um we do a Marcons treatment or suspected uh treat- or suspected Marcons treatment, right?

MARCoNS Explained

Not >> is what is Marcons? Marcons is a problematic um microbial colonization that occurs in the deeper nasal passages. Um what we've noticed is that um the majority of these patients um some of our um data shows at least 90% of patients end up having this colonization, and it drives down a message as the current um thesis in the field, and we've noticed um symptoms improvement and resolution in patients that then eradicate the Marcons. So, that's that's what all of Dr. Shoemaker's research over the last um 30 years. And what we do is um we um prescribe an EDTA and xylitol based nasal spray to address that issue. We also think it's addressing other um species beyond the marcons.

It's it's EDTA, so it's a biofilm disruptor, too. So, even if the marcons isn't there, we do notice um improvement and um patients love the experience, too. >> For um what we think is a biofilm issue in the nasal passages. Interesting. Well, it makes sense that if you're going to be breathing in all the time that mold could grow there. Like or some type of bacterial infection could grow there. It made sense. I didn't really believe it for a while cuz I'm very skeptical.

Even though I'm like going off on all these wild goose chases and everything, was skeptical. And I felt so much better after I moved out of the house and took cholestyramine that I tried the EDTA spray and felt awful and stopped and was like I'm fine. And then I was still very hypersensitive to buildings and that wasn't kind of going away. So, I started EDTA a couple months ago and I had full-on like mold die-off symptoms again. So, the first week I was taking it like my I was having my right leg go numb when I was living in Miami. Like numbness and weakness severely. Which was entertaining and then terrifying.

But um as soon as I started the EDTA spray, I had about a week of like numbness and pain and stuff and I was having nerve pain again. And I was like, "No way. This has just been in my nose?" Is that why you think people leave these houses and then don't get better? Um there's a few reasons. Um when what you're describing um first for the listeners is an intensification reaction uh to um to the nasal spray which which can happen I'd say more rare than um than the mainstream um for the patients to um >> Jordan didn't like my husband didn't notice the EDTA spray. Yeah, it's >> just like, I think it's improving me and I was like, I'm dead for a week.

But then it was okay. It was okay. And then um and then I think it was and then I think it helped. Yeah. It wasn't that bad and I knew what was going on, so it was fine. Yeah, there's a little bit of a a hero's journey, like you got through that intensification and um things start to feel better. Um what we've noticed with patients that don't continue to improve is that it could be a stubborn MARCoNS situation, so ongoing colonization.

Um especially if um patients don't uh continue the entire course of treatment or they're kind of um sporadic with it. Um so uh um that can happen and um especially if you're getting re-exposed a lot, you're more sus- susceptible um to that is is our clinical observation, so um yes, um we think so. And also you tend to need to go through all the steps to to have the the the maximum amount of recovery and what we've seen so far um through Dr.

Recovery Outcomes

Shoemaker's work and Dr. um Scott McMahon's work is that roughly 90% of the patients, so I'm not including the very hypersensitive patients in this. Um that's part of the 10%. Um get somewhere between 70 to 90% better. And that's also part of the opportunity and vision for what we're doing, too, is um what if our research can help get 100% of patients to 100%? Right? Like I think 90% to the 70 to 90% is a great starting point, um a phenomenal starting point for a field that hasn't really had a lot of answers for patients and it's not embedded in standard medical practice, but I I really think we can um really go for the 100% and the 100%. Like that would be a a really noble goal for us.

That that would be amazing. Yeah. I think my family's in that 10% unfortunately, especially my dad. It's just so inflammatory. We had his We redid his CIRS markers in the summer and I was like, they looked so bad. They were worse than when I like was hardly I was having a hard time walking upstairs. Um And his markers were so much worse than that.

And I was like, my gosh, this is him He's on tour all the time. So, I was like, that's probably not a great idea till you solve this CIRS problem. But he's like, no. God. Talking to the people. But um yeah, his was brutal. And then his uh EBV, so Epstein-Barr, was just off the charts.

And I was like, your immune system is not even working. Yeah. >> think it was the Epstein-Barr that was necessarily the problem. But it's just like nothing to counteract any type of Is this possibly what happens with Lyme, too?

Immune System Deregulation

Like you mentioned this a bit earlier that if your immune system is just not functioning properly, that these exposures that maybe wouldn't make everybody sick, but make some people sick, your body just can't handle them. Yeah, we think there's this accumulation effect with these different microbial exposures, like fungal, bacterial, viral, over time, causing innate immune system dysregulation. So, your first line of defense going haywire, and then leading to a state of chronic inflammation. So, we we think that's what's happening with these patients. Yeah. That makes sense. That makes sense why people started to get long COVID, too.

Just too much burden. How much do you think um like chemicals we're exposed to and diet plays a role in this? Is that also an accumulation of problems that are making people more susceptible, or do you think mold is the primary one? I think there's this concept of the exposome, like your total exposure surface area. Um I think if you have a bad diet, bad health, um a history of health issues, and um if you're also um if you're also just like immunocompromised, too, you're going to have worse outcomes. Um, what I've noticed with some of our like athlete patients, they tend to recover very quickly. Um, they they don't come in with as many symptoms.

Um, but they do notice it more. They're very in touch with their bodies. So, that's an interesting observation. And we do notice, as well, that patients are responsive to the low amylase diet, too. Also, eliminating starches, which it makes sense why you're seeing success with the carnivore diet, as well as avoiding gluten, too, cuz we tend to see patients having higher anti-gliadin antibodies. So, they're reactive to gluten. So, diet does play a role.

We tend to advise on a low amylase diet. Avoiding gluten for several of the patients. And also just your total health history and exposure history coming in. But, some people are just a lot more resilient, too. Um, especially if you don't have that genetic susceptibility that gets somehow gets people sick. We think it's an antigen presentation issue, which really simply is you can see your body as a castle and you have these security guards, right, in front of the castle. And these microbial forces that come in could be wearing the same outfits as those security guards.

And it's hard to distinguish who's friend and who's foe, but the alarm system knows something is off. So, you have your alarm system, your inflammatory response, your cytokine storm going off continuously. So, that represents the antigen presentation issues. Like, who's friend, who's foe? It's not really getting recognized, but there's this disregulated alarm system going off. So, if you don't have that dynamic in your body, that genetic susceptibility, too, you're also in a in a better spot. So, I think it's the sum of all these different things together.

Yeah, that makes sense. I did some research. So, the HLA genes are interesting. Like, the genes and HLA gene. There's a gene for ankylosing spondylitis. It's an HLA gene. And it just seems like some people and I think there's benefits.

I don't know what the benefit of like the CIRS genetics are, but I know with celiac or I believe I read back in the day that like why would people develop celiac disease, which is just your body really responds negatively to gliadin with gluten. And apparently they had an easier time identifying their body had an easier time identifying certain types of viruses. So it did kind of make sense. It's just now everybody eats gluten. So it's not great for people who have celiac disease, but HLA is interesting. What percentage of your patients ish don't have the one in four like bad genetics? Um we haven't mapped that out for the current patients mainly because we do have an option for the far majority of patients to start treatment without even doing the labs.

It's mainly driven by the symptoms we would expect and known exposure that's validated. So we look for that and we can start patients on treatment and if they're unresponsive to treatment we're you know, we're transparent with our patients. We're like we would expect to see this by this stage. We have to have a discussion and understand do we continue or do we turn and recommend referring out that patient too. So we don't have that data that we have that though out of the the R&D side of what we're doing. I don't have that number off hand, but Dr. Scott estimates roughly 5 to 7% of patients end up getting CIRS that don't have one of these genetic susceptibilities. >> Okay.

So not super high. But you shouldn't be in a moldy place anyway, even if you don't have the genes. Yeah, it's it's like single digit percentages from what they've seen in clinical practice, but yeah. >> I didn't realize it was that closely related to the genetic thing. It's pretty Yeah, it's pretty high signal. It seems >> you have in order to get CIRS, do you have to have I can't I can't remember two genes that are HLA probably problematic ones to be considered CIRS or is one good enough? To get a CIRS diagnosis, we typically like to see five abnormal markers and that could include the HLA haplotype. It can also include Yeah, it can include some of these other markers, too, like the MMP-9, the MSH, the TGF-beta 1, C4A, VEGF.

So, that's all included in the mixed bag of what are your five um dysregulated markers. Um that's one piece. Um HLA helps cuz it's so high signal. Um so, that tends to be a really common one in the field. We also look for the symptom clusters. We like to see eight of those boxes selected um if you're an adult. Um it's different for pediatric care and then also some sort of known exposure, too.

And um as as you know, CIRS is pretty umbrella and includes a lot of different biotoxin illnesses. So, that exposure could be um Pfiesteria, it could be um um ciguatera, it could be um you know, cyanobacteria. It doesn't have to be mold necessarily. In fact, um we're getting more and more excited about um is it potentially the endotoxins and actinobacteria, too, that's a major driver as well. But but that's like does that appear in a house like mold? Right now with inspectors, um so yes, when when you have water damage, you can expect to see like a whole microbial stew uh happening. It's not really tested for by inspectors.

It's really just this nascent data set we're um accumulating through uh dust testing. Um which does account for way more microbial species. I think that's an area the field needs to do a lot more research in is really mapping out similar to what we saw with um the Ermine herxheimer two where we have it was roughly a thousand data points across different homes mapping the dust test results to health outcomes. Like we really need to do that and better understand what percentage of patients are are are sick due to some of these other microbial species, but some of our really early data set which I'm challenging internally. There's this concept of their specific genes you can look at that are likely tied to these endotoxins or an actinobacteria so some of these like bacterial sources. So genes like these turn genes on. What do you mean genes associated?

Yeah, so through our RNA seek data, but that's not really a direct way to measure that. So I'm hoping to have a more 360 degree analysis of what's going on with these patients. Right now it's in the very early innings like it's more of a a theory getting developed by some of these clinical researchers and Dr. Shoemaker. Have you had patients that have CIRS severely enough that it's presenting as neurodegenerative disorders recover? So I've heard of these case studies through Dr. Scott and Dr.

Shoemaker. Yes, they've seen patients present with what was diagnosed or looks like MS for example and that was able to reverse a lot of these Alzheimer's, Parkinson's type diagnosis as well. So they those patients tend to recover, but for our patient cohort it's it's too early to say right now. Yeah, that's fair enough. That would be crazy. Well, I think this is revolutionary in a really terrifying way, but like people you You it's better to know than to not know, right? Better than living in a country where like why does everyone get sick and die here compared to other places?

What's going on? Do you think that there's any association with like the change in building materials breeding some type of worse mold here? Like is that possible or do you think it's just like why does America seem badly impacted when there are other countries that have high humidity where you're not seeing the rate of chronic disease skyrocket? That's interesting. We're not entirely sure why that is. We're not entirely sure why that is. I've been asking that same question and there are other countries that do seem to be impacted especially the UK and some of these European countries.

We've had a number of patients reach out to us wanting to travel from Europe to to get our care here in the states. But it's not entirely clear. There's just some There's some theories from the community on on why that is but I don't feel confident in in knowing that. Yeah. I feel like it could be I don't know what I read when and I've been on like Reddit and going through blogs and things so who knows how and it's all speculative and it's just super speculative but like I feel like it has to be Well, we know that houses are sealed up and the more modern houses don't have as much air flow. So in other countries that say have higher humidity, maybe their houses aren't as good but they have more indoor outdoor air exchange. So maybe it's that or maybe we introduced something in like the 80s in houses that bred some sort of super The bacteria or mold or something like an anti-fungal cuz they had mold resistant paints that they put everywhere.

And then it was like is this doing the same thing as antibiotic resistance? We're just like breeding super molds. It's like I don't know if that played a role. I don't know. >> That's one of the theories that Yeah, that's one of the theories for sure. It gets me curious. >> Yeah, it's like did we have like directed evolution and create these like super mold species in the home? Like that's definitely one that's in the Yeah. >> [laughter] >> Nervous laugh. >> Yeah. How long did it take you to So, what did you do?

You got sick in Miami. >> Mhm. Then you did a bunch of research. How did you figure out it was mold? Did you figure out it was mold? Had you heard of mold illness already? Zero clue. I I had no idea mold could do this to my health.

I was like very blissfully unaware. I've I've always had good health. It was very weird that these things were happening to me. It was actually a friend that worked at a functional health clinic that tipped me off where she's like, you know, your symptoms and what you're talking about sounds a lot like mold. We see a lot of these patients at the clinic. And I'm like, no way can mold cause these health issues. And I was like, you know what?

Now that you mention that, there is a weird smell in my home that I've noticed the first week and I've been reporting that to my landlord. I'm like, there's a really weird smell. I thought it was like a cigarette smell, but not. It was just like this like It was a little off-center from a cigarette smell. It wasn't a smell I've I've smelled before. So, that was really weird and then the initial inspector that came in deemed there wasn't a problem. That was through the landlord.

I was very >> convenient. Yeah, very skeptical. I'm like, okay, I know the Miami landlord reputation. I'm just going to hire my own inspector online and find someone credible. And then there was high levels found in in the air spore trap sample that was in the HVAC system. And we even found black mold under the sink. Knowing what I know now, I also suspect there could have been mold behind the walls, too.

There was some staining and and water damage in one of the closets. We didn't look back there, but I think there's just a more pervasive mold issue that I just wasn't aware of. And then did you move out and like did you immediately start SIRS treatment or did you try some other things first? And then how long did it take you to start feeling better? Yeah, um luckily I found a Shoemaker certified um physician early on in the process, but before that I was um ping-ponged uh to different referrals. I went to or specialist. I was referred to an immunologist, allergist, uh pulmonologist, neurologist.

I did a battery of lab tests which I was phobic of needles, so I also got a therapist to help me work over my needle phobia. Like there was this it was just this whole journey. Um not in victimhood about it. Um like hindsight really grateful it happened. I I think it gave me a lot of purpose, but um also went down the the functional health clinic route. Um I I had low ferritin, but I wasn't anemic. So I was like, let me try iron pills.

I'm like, okay, I feel a little better, but I still feel pretty sick. And then I finally got to a Shoemaker uh physician. I started treatment like end of December 2022 or early January 2023. Um and then started noticing a pretty significant difference on the binders within um 2 weeks for me. Every patient's different, but I had a moment where I like this is a little dramatic, but I fell to the floor just crying cuz I felt like I got my brain back. Like it's something I thought >> I I lost. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. >> emotional. Yeah. Um I I thought I lost that and I was just like doom lining my future. Like, okay, what can I realistically do? Like what what value do I have? Um it wasn't clear to me cuz I felt like I I can't think.

I can't process information. I'm not able to learn. I'm not able to like have the energy to really build anything. Like I just felt really defeated. Um so that was a turning point and I was like, okay. I actually like I feel kind of good now. Yeah, feel better.

Yeah. No, I I totally get that. I had that kind of with diet when I turned my health around with diet where I hit a I hit a point where I was so sick and I was on so many medications that I was like, "Oh, I'm going to die. Like, I'm not getting better. This isn't getting better unless something changes." And the medical system was not helping cuz I'd been in it for 15 years. I was like, "If I keep doing this and the trajectory keeps going downhill, I'm screwed."

And then thank like, thank God I managed to get my symptoms under control with diet until I got sick in my I got sick in Nashville, actually. Everyone knows that, too. I moved to Nashville, my unit flooded. I didn't I didn't This didn't occur to me at the time. I I was like visiting London and my unit flooded and they like moved us to a different unit. Then they cleaned it and moved all our stuff back in and I was like, I thought I was having severe tree allergies. Like, what is happening?

And I have this podcast that's I might have taken it down, but it might still be up where my face is really like up just a puff. And people are like, "What's wrong with you?" I was like, "I don't know. I I have no internal dialogue. I can't even think and my face is puffy. What's going on?" Thought it was tree allergies, moved to Miami, moved into another moldy house, then another one.

It was like the third one where I was like, "Oh, mold." But it it's it's terrifying. It's scary. Yeah. Well, I'm glad you're doing what you're doing. Thank you. And um I think people should be aware of this.

Mold co, um you can get blood work done. I think anyone who's experiencing health problems, even food sensitivities, I would say, uh cuz that's a big sign of mold exposure, right? Heightened food sensitivities. Yeah, especially gluten, um especially if you notice the IBS type symptoms. That tends to be one of the earlier uh symptoms that present. Um definitely suspect mold especially if it's not just gastrointestinal but you're also noticing some of the other symptoms too so it's like this multi-system response perhaps with the brain fog and the fatigue and frequent urination. We commonly see hair loss and hormonal issues too so if all of that's going on perhaps look into mold.

Yeah, good idea. And then for kids so Scarlet got quite sick and she's got the genetics. Um and she was having so in Nashville she was having nightmares and she hadn't had nightmares before and I was like that's weird. So that was that was a big one and then when she went to Miami she was having accidents at kind of an older age where I was like what's going on and it turns out one of the main symptoms of mold illness in children and correct me if I'm wrong but is having accidents as a kid like urgency. Um what have you seen in kids? Like how would a parent be like maybe that's what's wrong with my kid. She had bronchitis all the time.

She had like bronchitis and pneumonia and I was like that's what I was like as a kid. What's going on? She didn't used to have bronchitis and pneumonia and we moved to Nashville and it was like sick all winter and then Miami which is like all sunny and beautiful sick all winter and I was like something's going on and it was mold. We moved here no she hasn't had bronchitis once. So what have you seen with kids? Yeah, um we we currently treat adults but Dr. Scott our medical director also has a pediatric background.

We've noticed increased cases of PANS PANDAS for example some of these like neuropsychiatric issues in children.

Autism and CIRS Connection

We are looking more deeply at the autism connection as well. Um if it's not if it's >> Yeah. yeah, so we think there could be a tie or at least a correlation there. We are seeing some early data to support that. So we're actually organizing a memo now and pulling our biobank data and getting some more samples to to just suss that out a bit further.

Treatment for Kids

But similar to the adult symptoms of that symptom cluster is what we see in kids is that instead of the eight symptom clusters we see six of those boxes so six of the symptom clusters in children is the cut off there as well as the lab test too that tend to be disregulated same with the adults it's the same with kids. Interesting. And then my experience so you're not treating kids or not treating kids yet. We'll see what the future brings but for now no. Um Scarlett got better really fast. Like she's got genes that don't look great. They kind of look like mine.

Um and we moved out and I swear moving out made her feel better compared to adults like Jordan and I and I was like flattened. If I hadn't had the binder I don't know how long it would have taken me to recover. Like it was it was crazy. I literally went from not being able to walk upstairs without like taking a breather and not being able to answer emails to starting cholestyramine and feeling like garbage with intensification. And it was about two weeks when I was like I think I'm starting to feel better and then a month later I was like not winded I could walk upstairs without like lactic acid burn walking upstairs. I was like I'm not gaining muscle. This lactic acid burn is a lie.

What's going on? But um Scarlett got better really quick. That's that's what we notice with the kids too. They the bounce back is is incredible a lot faster than adults. So that that tracks. Yeah, okay that's good cuz they can get pretty sick and then bounce back which is really promising for any parents worried about it is it's not as scary as like 60-year-old having this. Yeah, I agree.

Where to Find More Info on Ariana and MoldCo

Okay, so where can I direct people to find out more? Yeah, absolutely. So we have mold-co.com. Um we have a number of resources on there, free online education. We have a free guide. We have our lab test, our starter panel. We're offering that at cost.

So it's just a really great way. >> Yeah, so that I mean >> Yeah, so that's just a way to um help patients get answers right away. That includes MMP9, MSH, TGF beta 1. So our highest signal markers in the starter panel. So I love that panel. Um it's it's great. We also have the dust test online, too. Which is the fraction of the cost of getting an inspector and it's a great way to just quickly see like it could there be a mold issue or not in the home.

Um we offer care that's currently just in eight states, but we're expanding that to all 50 states. And um if you're having any uh questions or do you just want to send comments? Um we have a support email. I'm actually included on that support email. I read almost every single email. If Yeah, so that's support at mold-co.com. So I just love understanding the questions getting asked and we've actually incorporated a lot of the uh patient feedback to date.

So it's it's been um an incredible experience um almost co-creating with our patients to build something that drives the most value. Okay, well, thank you very much for coming on. I'm really excited to see this blow up. I think it's going to be huge. I don't know how long it's going to take, but you're definitely pushing ahead hard. But I think in I don't know 5 years, maybe that's on the like hopeful side, but in 10 years everybody is going to know about this. And hopefully it can be sooner than that.

I hope so. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, thanks for coming on. >> Hey.