Ben Greenfield Breaks Down Every Peptide, Patch and Protocol He Uses When He Travels | Ben Greenfield

Intro

Mikhaila Reductress is kind of like a sledgehammer for quieting food noise. I inject it on airplane travel days cuz I don't want to think about eating. I don't have access to good food. Sometimes it's annoying to like pack a cooler and pack all the food.

Ben Wild. Ben Greenfield, I have a bunch of questions for you.

Mikhaila Well, I might have some for you, too. How do you recommend people structure a carnivore diet for a kid?

Ben I think if I had had a limited diet when I was a kid, I could have avoided a hip and ankle replacement. I've been avoiding antibiotics and pharmaceuticals for like a decade [music] because I was like, how much did that as a kid contribute to all the dysbiosis and like disease that I have?

Mikhaila The rejuvenation effect people call like the blood boy stuff. Get the actual young stuff put back in or [music] use stem cells or exosomes.

Ben How long has that been around? Give me the children blood.

Mikhaila I mean ever since the days of the vampire, I guess. Texas is the only state where it's actually legal.

Ben [music]

Mikhaila Ben Greenfield, welcome to my theater room.

Ben Your your sauna of a city.

Mikhaila Yes.

Ben It's like what? Noon and it's already probably almost 100° outside.

Mikhaila Yeah, this March has been This March is nasty. This summer is going to be brutal, yeah, but not compared to Canadian winter.

Ben I don't know. I'm in North Idaho. You probably have us beat in Canada.

Mikhaila How cold does it get there? Is it awful?

Ben gets pretty cold. We're kind of like on the wind-swept plain in this little 125-person community. Um and it gets like there's there's definite wind chill factor. Like I get free cryotherapy chamber every time I go out to my office.

Mikhaila Oh.

Ben There's like a hallway that you walk out of the house and into my office and just wind pours in there. So.

Mikhaila I don't want I don't want that.

Ben Yeah.

Mikhaila At all. Okay, I have a bunch of questions for you.

Ben Okay.

Mikhaila And I've heard you

Ben have some for you, too.

Mikhaila Okay, let let's

Ben I don't know. Are you are you able to talk about the um study you texted me like a few weeks ago about this study

Mikhaila Yes. I can talk about it.

Ben I'm just going to ask first then. What what's the latest on the carnivore study thing?

Mikhaila We're starting in 2 weeks officially. We've got a bunch of people, although we're still taking applicants if people want to join. They need to have a diagnosis of diagnosis of a rheumatoid arthritis

Ben Okay.

Mikhaila or um IBD.

Ben Yep.

Mikhaila And we're trying to get as many people as we can because the few studies on the carnivore diet specifically are it's like 10 people. There was a a good study a solid study on IBD where everybody went into remission and it was 10 people. So we're trying to we're trying to make that larger and um move into like the arthritis territory which matters to me cuz I had juvenile idiopathic arthritis.

Ben Yeah.

Mikhaila Um and the team I just had a podcast with Dr. Rob Abbott and he reached out to run it cuz he's done a number of studies and was interested in kind of pushing this field forward. Uh we crowdfunded a big portion of it. So that was on GoFundMe.

Ben Okay.

Mikhaila We had a couple of people who are really interested in carnivore research reach out and give like bigger donations.

Ben And for people who don't understand how the crowdfunding works is this so you can get bigger ribeyes or are there other expenses associated with running a proper research study like this?

Mikhaila Oh my gosh. Well, the biggest So the research team is getting paid but they're being unbelievably reasonable. Like you'd never get that from a university if you went that route. Like I looked into running studies previously and they were in the two to three million dollar range for something like this and I was like where is that money going?

Ben Yeah.

Mikhaila So the research team is getting paid more than reasonably. Um most of the costs are for labs because we're doing the we're doing a

Ben That makes sense.

Mikhaila We're a stool test and that's in the like $700 range and then we're doing we're doing that twice. We're doing blood work throughout. We're buying it keto monitors for everybody to monitor ketones and glucose and a body composition scale. So, almost all of the cost, you know, it's over a thousand dollars that's just going towards people who are part of the study. That's the mental cost.

Ben markers related to inflammation, autoimmune, etc. as well, right?

Mikhaila So, like general ones and then we picked some that were more associated with autoimmunity. Um and then for the results basically the results are going to be how much people's lives improve and symptoms improve according to them. So, that's going to be what matters cuz that is really what matters is do you feel like you're healing or you're in remission. But, we're also going to have all the data from the lab works and the stool samples to see if there's any pattern that we can pick up. So, we're going to have a lot of data and then we'll see what we can turn out there if there's patterns.

Ben Yeah, and and and obviously I'm assuming this isn't going to be like a metabolic ward study where these people are all living in a little space capsule, but are you going through some kind of process to keep the diet like consistent in terms of what they're eating or their instructions just like only eat meat or what's the what's the actual diet look like as far as consistency?

Mikhaila So, for the first month, what I've found with people who transition to just eating meat is especially if they have an autoimmune disorder is if they go from the standard American diet and a high carb and high processed foods to just meat, that first month is gnarly and unpleasant and hard.

Ben Do you think that's cuz of like the transition to burning fat instead of carbohydrates or like lower calories or other cluster factors?

The Carnivore & Lion Diet Study: What They're Testing

Mikhaila like from my experience and I didn't go from standard American diet to carnivore, I went from like a very limited keto to carnivore and there was still a transition. I think a lot of it is microbiome change.

Ben Okay. Cuz if you were from keto to carnivore, that would rule out some some sort of ketosis, you know, fat burning transition period.

Mikhaila I still had kind like a rough time gut wise. Um but it was weird. It was like my gut got worse on carnivore initially, but all the symptoms that I was really concerned about so like the depression and the arthritis went away and I was like

Ben Mhm.

Mikhaila What do you do here?

Ben Probably why a lot of people experience a shift uh including myself. I did a 12-week strict carnivore after Paul Saladino flew up to my house and did a podcast and convinced me. Well, he I mean literally like he like we would make steaks and he would not let anybody touch his steak, you know, only salt like super strict but but also pretty smart informed guy. So he convinced me that it would be a good idea to try and I tried it for 12 weeks, but the initial almost week was like a mix of like you know, liquid poo like weird gastric stuff I did not expect.

Mikhaila think that was?

Ben related to the microbiome shift that you're talking about. You're you're essentially reinventing the entire substrate for your bacteria while technically starving possibly a little bit of a Herxheimer reaction for some of the bacteria that are starving off. So

Mikhaila Yeah.

Ben Yeah. Um for the that back to what people are actually eating though. Is this like nose to tail? Is it just like whatever you want to eat as long as it's not plants?

Mikhaila So we're doing the first month is going to be like no processed food very low carb and that's going to be the transition month so that getting into the carnivore diet isn't so bad. We we're actually splitting the group of people. So there'll be a third of the people are going to be transitioning into the lion diet which is meat. Um I don't think we're going to include organs at the beginning. It's just going to be ruminant meat, salt and water. They'll be transitioning into that. A third of the people are going to

Mikhaila

Ben So so by the way, when you say ruminant meat, so people understand we're talking about like venison,

Mikhaila lamb, cows. What about fish?

Ben Anything. No.

Mikhaila No fish? Okay.

Ben No. Is there a reason for the no fish thing?

Mikhaila I mean, this is just based off of like this is really based off of my experience and then my experience like running groups of like 30,000 people

Ben Yeah.

Mikhaila and seeing what they react to and for like

Ben eat sardines.

Mikhaila They probably would.

Ben Yeah. Yeah, I would imagine. They're cats.

Mikhaila They they probably would.

Ben Um okay, so ruminant meats.

Mikhaila Yes, that's a third of the group and then the another third is going to transition to transition into the ketogenic diet. Um so that's regular ketogenic diet. So like no processed foods, but like dairy, eggs, meat, you know, greens, low-carb ketogenic diet.

Ben Right. And then ketogenic clinical low-carb. You're talking like probably below well, like 40 g

Mikhaila Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure. And they'll be testing ketones, too. So we're going to like lower it till they're in like a therapeutic ketosis range and that'll show us if the effects are due to ketosis or due to more of an elimination of plant foods. So there's that and then there's going to be a third that are stuck on the regular diet, which is going to be standard American. And in 3 months, we're going to transition them onto one of the therapeutic diets, too.

Mikhaila So everybody who joins can like get dietary treatment monitored by a doctor, but we'll at least have a control group that's a regular diet.

Ben Right.

Mikhaila Um everyone does a transition for a month to like lower carb and then into the ketogenic diet or ruminant meat.

Ben Studies like this, I don't know if you ever looked into this. Like do you anticipate that there'll be a certain number of people who are just like, whatever, driving by a Mickey D's or their kid brings home some snack from school and they're like, "Screw it. I'm out." and you get dropouts due to poor diet adherence?

Mikhaila I mean, for sure. Like it's tricky and being that strict is unbelievably tricky. So we have a group so everybody in the study will be able to meet other people in the study and kind of give them support, which I think is really necessary when you're trying to make that much of a dramatic dietary change. They're going to be monitored by doctors. They're going to be testing ketones. So, we'll kind of be able to monitor. It's not like we have cameras on everybody all the time, but we'll kind of be able to monitor if they hop

Mikhaila

Ben Slowly put down the sourdough. Step away. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. You know, it is it's compelling to me because you're looking at something that I think more from a longevity, less from a health standpoint, is something that actually recently got fleshed out in a really big, I guess flesh pun intended in this case, a big Chinese study. It was over 5,000 participants.

Ben It was like a progressive study, not a regressive study, meaning that they actually looked at what people were eating and then what the response was rather than looking at how long someone lived and then regressing and asking them what kind of diet they ate in life. Just followed people over a long

Mikhaila Oh, interesting.

Ben And what they found, long story short, was that particularly in people 80 years or older, that inclusion of animal proteins lent itself significantly to increased lifespan and quality of life. So, health span, lifespan improved with inclusion of specifically animal proteins, but it wasn't strictly animal proteins. They weren't looking at things necessarily like arthritis and immune factors, even though those play a role in like

Mikhaila Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Ben Um so, it'll be interesting to see what the difference is when maybe protein is equivalent, but then it's just from animals.

Mikhaila Imagine your favorite lecture. Dial that up on max, put that on steroids, and then add some cinematic elements to it. That's the best way I could describe [music] a Peterson Academy lecture.

Ben There's always that one professor who's like, "Oh man, you know, you got take this one professor. They're the best." But, at Peterson Academy, it's all of those that one professor.

Mikhaila I'm still paying off college from 10 years ago, and I'm also still questioning [music] the value that I got out of college.

Ben It's very common nowadays for students to be in thousands and [music] thousands of dollars of debt. It breaks my heart the interest rates that are just going to keep on piling up on them for an education that doesn't entirely serve them.

Mikhaila You uh stuck in the room, you have to do particular set of courses, and I have to convince [music] myself to stay focused. It's just pretty dry.

Ben With Peterson Academy, it's a fraction of the cost, and you get access to all these different topics.

Mikhaila It goes [music] anything from sciences, nutrition, why we get sick, all the way up to history, tons of courses, tons of really [music] good lectures.

Autoimmune Disease, Gut Health & Why Diet Alone Isn't Always Enough

Ben I'm always looking for a high-quality educational content. Peterson Academy provides it all.

Mikhaila The instructors are amazing. They're so well-known in their field that you [music] just want to pay attention.

Ben The more I access, the more I listen, the more I learn, the more I want to learn. I just keep expanding, and I just want more.

Mikhaila Traditional university can sometimes grind you down. Peterson Academy will be able to scratch [music] that itch of you wanting to learn and continuing to grow as a person.

Ben I can't wait to see where Peterson [music] Academy goes. There's just so much potential, and it's just the beginning.

Mikhaila to college [music] because I had to. I go to Peterson Academy because I want to.

Ben You just kind of have to focus on what's [music] going to actually change your life. Stop paying attention to what things are supposed to look like, and actually aim for something, and you might just stumble across something like Peterson Academy.

Mikhaila I think part of like my hypothesis or here is like I think part of the reason that just ruminant meat seems to work pretty effectively for autoimmunity is the elimination is like due to incredible gut damage and leaky gut, and people just stop being able to tolerate foods that would otherwise be healthy because their gut barrier's too damaged. And so that's why we're doing the stool testing in some of these labs that kind of look at gut barrier. Uh so that I'm interested to see that data.

Ben Yeah.

Mikhaila And then ideally like long-term for someone if they end up putting their autoimmunity into remission, the long-term goal would be other ways of like doing gut barrier healing and then slowly reintroducing so you're not just stuck on ruminant meat. And I know for me I was stuck on ruminant meat for almost No, it was it was 8 years without being able to add anything without having these massive flare-ups. And after I did parasite treatment, which I always thought was which I thought was a scam for a really long time.

Ben Please don't tell me you posted the pictures to the internet on the internet.

Mikhaila On the On the website see my pictures.com. Yeah, um what parasite cleanse did you do?

Ben So I I went the pharmaceutical route. I worked with um Dr. Gabrielle Lyon.

Mikhaila Yeah.

Ben And she sent a sample to uh a university guy in in Africa that looked at the sample under a microscope, just plain old microscope.

Mikhaila Yeah.

Ben And that's where they found some things that the tests in North America weren't picking up because it's not like I haven't done extensive testing throughout this period. I've been like You know, the first thing I looked at before I even started dieting was do I have a parasite?

Mikhaila Right.

Ben And like everything came back kind of clear. Um I did H. pylori treatment. That made a massive difference. And I'd been told by a lot of integrative naturopaths and regular doctors to ignore the like higher levels of H. pylori.

Mikhaila Yeah.

Ben And generally that's the advice if you test with H. pylori but you're asymptomatic, you ignore it.

Mikhaila Yeah, and I was asymptomatic except I couldn't eat anything.

Ben Yeah. Yeah. And also H. pylori changes the biome from from like a terrain hypothesis in such a way that you become more prone to parasitic infection. So those two kind of go hand in hand a lot of the time. But, so you tested clear for parasites here, but then when you sent your shit literally over to Germany, then this guy saw stuff. Oh, Africa. This guy saw stuff under the microscope.

Ben

Mikhaila Yeah. And I treated those, and I I've always like I've been avoiding antibiotics and pharmaceuticals for like a decade because I was like, how much did that as a kid contribute to all the dysbiosis and like disease that I have? So, I was very averse to that, but I ended up do going the pharmaceutical route. So, I took albendazole. I think I took mebendazole. I did the H. pylori treatment, which is quad therapy, but I avoided You can take a fluoroquinolone for that, and I avoided those, and I avoided metronidazole, which makes me feel terrible as well. So, I took the safer antibiotics.

Mikhaila Um And that that plus strictly monitoring my air quality and getting out of mold and using a binder fixed my digestion. My mom did the same thing. Fixed her digestion. She's had digestive issues since she can remember as like a kid.

Ben Yeah.

Mikhaila And um the ruminant meat like lion diet put her arthritis into remission, but didn't fix that like digestive problem. Pharmaceuticals ended up fixing her problem, and so now she's able to eat more things, too. I've been I still feel best I've realized after like experimenting a little bit with some like arugula, lettuce, like really

Ben Yeah.

Mikhaila nice things, but

Ben back back to the idea that when you're following a carnivore diet, a lot of times you feel better because you're eliminating a lot of the things that contributed to leaky gut. That's where I think, kind of like you were just talking about, it's reasonable to think about implementing some other things that can help to heal up leaky gut faster. Like, you know, I know that bone broth is something that you wouldn't consider to be um not allowed on the carnivore diet, right? Okay, so

Peptides for Healing, Digestion & Recovery

Mikhaila Bone broth is one because of glycine and everything, but um peptides like KPV, I don't know if you've heard of that one.

Ben gosh, KPV that's the other thing I started.

Mikhaila That and the larazotide, um those two are

Ben I don't know larazotide.

Mikhaila Yeah, um that one um you can get it from a compounding pharmacist and it is similar to KPV in efficacy. It's like an oral capsule that you take before a meal, like 10 minutes before a meal, and a lot of people will like inject KPV, take larazotide, and that's kind of like the new one-two combo for leaky gut issues.

Ben Okay.

Mikhaila If the whole like natural like glutamine, colostrum, glycine, bone broth thing isn't really working.

Ben Interesting. [clears throat]

Mikhaila And I I get when I travel, I get princess gut. Like all the I'm fine at home and then it's like whatever, you know, corn and carrot shreds and quinoa in the toilet bowl if I ever like veer off of a healthy diet when I travel. And so now I travel with KPV and I just inject it every morning and it's almost completely noosed any gut issues.

Ben I love KPV. That was the one peptide actually the Gabrielle Lyon was suggested that one too, and that's one that I could noticeably feel like physiologically calmer.

Mikhaila Mhm.

Ben Um it and it was noticeable and usually I only keep doing things that I can like tell are working, so I don't end up on a whole bunch of things, but KPV I like a lot. Larazotide.

Mikhaila Pro- probably the la- it's not really for leaky gut or gut barrier issues, but just general gut inflammation, just oral BPC 157.

Ben Yeah, I haven't done that yet, but probably should.

Mikhaila Yeah, I know a lot of people get concerned about a lot of these because of lack of long-term human research, which is true. Like I'm not one of those guys who thinks peptides are a miracle cure for everything um without risk cuz you just can't say. I mean, they're very simple. They're short chains of amino acids and they seem to act with pretty good precision on the organ systems that they're supposed to target, but there is kind of like a glaring lack of long-term human clinical research on them. Um anecdotally, most of the people who seem to have like side effects are getting them from like the bargain bin, you know, muscle bro website where a lot of times it's just like less um high-quality, less pure Chinese imports, you know, not manufactured in cGMP facilities. That's like the whole kind of battle that's going on in the peptide industry right now is, you know, how can you secure access for people to get good stuff without them like buying from these fly-by-night websites, which have been getting shut down. There's like cease and desist letters going after them.

Mikhaila

Ben of the one of the websites I we were buying from just shut down.

Ben I think so, too. What are your if you had to recommend peptides for people to look into?

Mikhaila Yeah.

Ben What are your top three?

Mikhaila phrase that, look into.

Ben Yeah.

Mikhaila Um yeah, [laughter] I am not a doctor. This is not medical advice. Um KPV, like we mentioned, that's that's a pretty good one. Um obviously, it's a little bit more difficult to get, but I think for the quieting food noise piece, if you are paying attention to good protein intake, good amino acid intake, and weightlifting, like retatrutide is kind of like a sledgehammer for quieting food noise. I inject it on airplane travel days cuz I don't want to think about eating. I don't have access to good food. Sometimes it's annoying to like pack a cooler and pack all the food.

Mikhaila And I would lose too much weight and lose too much muscle. Like I'm kind of a hard gainer anyways. If I were to two inject that like three times a week or do like a big bolus weekly, but baby dose of that. I'm talking like 0.25 mg. And if you look at a lot of these studies with muscle mass, they're using like 2.5 mg plus.

Ben Yeah.

Mikhaila That one is super good probably cuz it's acting on three different hunger pathways. So it's like it's called like a triple agonist.

Ben Okay.

Mikhaila It's effective. It's also one of those ones that is probably going to go the pharmaceutical route. So I don't know how much longer after this podcast comes out people will even be able to get that one. Um so retatrutide is one um for the kind of like growth hormone secretagogue um visceral fat muscle gain piece along with recovery, typically stacking a couple of different growth hormone type of peptides like morning and evening. And that this is kind of like old school bodybuilding stuff, but now a lot of people are doing this just to like maintain muscle. Um are a couple of peptides. One called tesamorelin.

Mikhaila Have you heard of that one?

Ben Maybe heard of.

Mikhaila Very good for growth hormone release, but also for decreasing visceral fat accumulation or helping you burn more visceral fat, which is the type of fat that tends to be more associated with chronic disease. It's kind of like the pear-shaped stuff that accumulates around the organs. Um and then and in the evening, there's one called ipamorelin. And that's something that you can stack like one in the morning, one in the evening. And typically what that looks like for somebody is you do like 12 weeks of 5 days on, 2 days off. And the cool part about the Ipamorelin is it also helps you to sleep at night. But it doesn't work very well if you have high blood glucose or high insulin levels.

Mikhaila So you typically inject it like this kind of necessitates like getting an early dinner. So if you eat it like if you end eating it like 6:00 p.m. you would inject at 7:30, 8:00, you know, 8:30 p.m. before you go to bed.

Histamine Intolerance, Food Sensitivities & Hidden Health Problems

Ben Oh, okay.

Mikhaila Um so that's a pretty good combo. Um and then [clears throat] so everything I mentioned so far like KPV, Retatrutide, Tesamorelin, Ipamorelin, those are all injectables. And some people are like, "Well, I'm needle-phobic. Um I don't want to travel around with a bunch of insulin syringe and alcohol swabs." So the cool thing is that a lot of peptide delivery mechanisms have kind of changed. Like you can get a micro needle patch that delivers everything within about 8 to 10 minutes. You can wear a long-term patch for things that go beyond peptides like NAD.

Mikhaila Um I flew down here yesterday and this is another thing I do on travel days. I inject Retatrutide and I put on an NAD patch. It's kind of like slow bleeds transdermally 1,300 mg of NAD in while I'm traveling and it helps a ton with travel fatigue, with sleep deprivation, with just kind of like the blah feeling that you get on a

Ben Are there any weird I've had the IVs of NAD that are brutal.

Mikhaila the stomach flipping. And a lot of times people notice that more with the IVs because it is getting into the bloodstream faster. And also cuz if you if you look at this patch, it is a 12-hour patch. So twice as long in terms of how quickly it's getting released into your bloodstream. And then people who are poor methylators tend to really have an issue with NAD because of those pathways and if you feel like crap when you get an NAD IV and you take a methyl donor like trimethylglycine or Sammy or something like that right before your IV, a lot of times you feel way better. But then these patches um they they basically are giving it to you without the IV in very similar doses. I mean 1,300 mg is a lot of NAD.

Mikhaila

Ben Can you just get those online from Peptide [clears throat] Place or something like that?

Mikhaila Uh there's two companies. I know Peptide Sciences Ion Layer might. I get mine from Peptide Sciences and then it's got a little bit of GHK copper peptide in it which is kind of a good anti-inflammatory peptide. That's an interesting one because so you measure the size of something like a peptide in units called Daltons and GHK copper peptide is like 50 Daltons. So that's why it works so well as a beauty product. So a lot of people like um men will use it for like a graying like a salt and pepper beard. Um it seems to help with hair color in facial hair.

Mikhaila Um some people this is this is anecdotal but they'll do like the derma roller or micro needling thing and then apply transdermal like topical GHK copper peptide and say that it helps with follicular health or like slowing hair growth. It's not going to grow new hair but um anecdotally it might slow hair growth and then just as a beauty product because it is absorbed so well it's in a lot of beauty products right now. Um So that's GHK copper peptide and then um if you want to look at another delivery mechanism intranasal is pretty cool because you can cross the blood brain barrier really easily and a lot of these peptides work on either um GABA pathways in the brain to kind of like calm you. Um something like uh C-link or C-max. Um one of those can also increase brain-derived neurotrophic factor, which can help grow your brain.

Ben some digging into that.

Mikhaila Both of those you can do intranasally. SS-31 is also really great for the brain. That's another one that's probably going the pharmaceutical route, but that one you can do intranasal. You can do NAD intranasal now.

Ben Oh.

Mikhaila BPC-157 and TB-500 are these two anti-inflammatory peptides. Like I mentioned, if you took BPC orally, it'd be great for gut inflammation. But those I consider to be kind of like first aid kit, like whatever, sprained an ankle, you know, tore something up during a workout, or even brain inflammation, like applied nasally. And then probably the last one that you might be interested in is there's one called VIP. I believe it stands for vasoactive

Ben I've taken, too.

Mikhaila intestinal polypeptide. Um, and that one for uh for like microtoxin from old microtoxin exposure. Seems to do a really good job as far as

Ben treatment.

Mikhaila intranasal for biofilm type of stuff. Yep, it is part of CIRS treatment. I think that's part of uh Who's the big mold microtoxin guy? Um, is it Richmond?

Ben Shoemaker.

Mikhaila Ri- Ritchie Shoemaker, yeah. And he's using that in his practice quite a bit. So, there's like dozens and dozens of different peptides, but that's kind of a a sampling of some of the cool ones that can at least bring people down the rabbit hole.

Ben That's very cool. Okay, thank you for that. I did like KPV, tried VIP cuz of the CIRS treatment, and couldn't and then I keep getting pregnant, so like it's delaying everything.

Mikhaila Yeah.

Ben Like pregnancy delay for like a year.

Mikhaila Wait, what do you mean it's delaying? You mean like getting pregnant is delaying?

Ben Well, I don't I don't want to take peptides while I'm pregnant. I'm okay with experimenting on myself, but and I'm not even really that concerned about them, but like you can't do it with you when you're pregnant, so that's been delaying a lot of my tests.

Mikhaila I think that's safe. Yeah, you want

Ben That seems reasonable.

Mikhaila Crazy baby.

Ben Yeah. Really strong baby.

Mikhaila So So yeah, but with peptides yeah, it's still kind of like the wild wild west as far as research goes. So

Ben Mhm.

Mikhaila It's kind of like a proceed at your own risk type of thing.

Ben Yeah, for sure. Okay, that's interesting. Um have you this is a kind of random question out of the blue, but and just [clears throat] a selfish question. My family seems to have issues with sulfur and I'm wondering if you know anything about that, whether it's like a pathway issue or what. Cuz when we first started got off all the meds, so it was mostly psych meds, started going on like ketogenic diet, getting healthier, it's almost like it popped up.

Mikhaila Mhm.

Ben I think it's always been there cuz I had some issues before.

Mikhaila Because of the higher sulfur containing amino acids in meat.

Ben Do you think that would be it? It's mostly like sulfite, major sulfite allergy and that's actually hives and things. But then it also seems to be sulfate as well, which I know doesn't usually react when you have a sulfite allergy. So I was like, what is that What's that about? But B vitamins have always been an issue. This is way before diet. So I think there's some I don't know methylation issues going on.

Ben I can't take methyl methylated vitamins at all.

Mikhaila Interesting. Yeah, I don't know that much about sulfur sulfate sensitivities, but I did interview Dr. Ben Lynch. I don't know if you're familiar with him. His website Seeking Health and he has a genetic screening tool. I forget the name of the test that he uses, but one of the pathways that he talks about in the test results in his book are sulfur sensitivity. Sulfur just to is pop up there.

Mikhaila Histamine sensitivity. So he'd be kind of the man to look into for that.

Ben Okay.

Mikhaila Yeah.

Ben I think he told I think I did that actually years ago and probably didn't pay pay attention to that test, so

Mikhaila Yeah.

Ben I'll look back into that.

Mikhaila Yeah. Yeah. And he has a book too. Um

Ben Dirty Genes.

Mikhaila Yeah, Dirty Genes. Yeah.

Ben Yes.

Mikhaila Dr. Ben Lynch, Dirty genes. I like it because he identifies like some of the genetic pathways that you really need to care about.

Mold Exposure, Environmental Toxins & Chronic Illness

Mikhaila Kind of like cutting through a lot of the like dozens and dozens of different gene variants that sometimes are just a waste of time.

Ben Yeah, his supplement line is great, too. That's where you can actually get I started taking folinic acid because if you're only eating This is what I figured out after 8 years of only eating meat, folate levels slowly go down. That's what happened to me. Now my B vitamins looked terrible before I started dieting. So it's not like they were good and got worse, but they didn't improve and all the other B vitamins did, but folate didn't and I can't take methylfolate. I can't take folic acid, um, but folinic acid has been great. And Seeking Health has a version of that.

Ben

Mikhaila Yeah.

Ben Yeah. Um, they also for people and and this is kind of similar to the sulfate or sulfur sensitivity thing is uh histamine sensitivities which are

Mikhaila 100% yeah.

Ben a huge issue for a lot of people. Like I'm surprised more and more at the people who I talk to who get like brain fog, bloating, gas, disrupted sleep because it affects a lot of glucose metabolism and get on like the the primary like the the the the the big sledgehammer for it is something called diamine oxidase or DAO.

Mikhaila I I took that for years after mold like skyrocketed histamine issues.

Ben Then a lot of people who are, you know, who are into kombucha, um, you know, like back to sardines, canned fish, wine, sauerkraut, kimchi, a lot of things that a lot of people who think they're eating a healthy diet are eating, who have histamine sensitivities which are pretty common and are also they they're worse if you have had mold and mycotoxin issues in the past. Um, they can [clears throat] use like like Ben Lynch has a great line of histamine based or anti-histamine based probiotics and then diamine oxidase type of stuff. Which if you combine that with eliminating those things from your diet and you have those type of issues and you've tried a bunch of stuff like the the histamine control seems to work pretty well for a lot of people.

Mikhaila That's the other thing that I think improves with meat diet or carnivore diet is now like aged meat different story but meat's fairly low in histamine compared to a lot of these other foods especially the fermented foods or like cheese but even some fruits that are histamine liberators or high in histamine.

Ben Yeah.

Mikhaila Uh the carnivore diet kind of cuts out all that noise too. I tried to see if the foods that I was reacting to were just the foods that were releasing histamine or high in histamine and it ended up being more than that. But I think that was a major issue for me and that's gotten a lot better since getting out of mold and doing the parasite stuff. Like all the histamine thing everything's calmed down which is great. That was annoying.

Ben So how picky are you um if you or you're talking to somebody who you're you're wanting to do like a strict carnivore diet are you about like cooking methods herbs spices you mentioned aging I mean like brass tacks what's it look like like like for somebody who hasn't experimented with what a gold standard carnivore diet would look like for somebody who really wants to control an autoimmune issue rheumatoid arthritis something like that.

Mikhaila So I'm probably more relaxed than it's weird I'm very strict I suggest salt and meat. So no spices nothing if you have an autoimmune disorder or psych disorder like a disease you're trying to calm down is like just eat meat.

Ben Okay.

Mikhaila Um I'll mention if that digestive

Ben Like get in the details like salt are you picky about the source?

Mikhaila I'm picky yes I say make sure that it doesn't have anti-caking agents.

Ben Okay.

Mikhaila And I suggest some brands. So like I use Jacobson's which I like cuz I know it's been tested and it doesn't have high levels of like scary things that like lead or something like that that you can get in salt. So, yeah, I suggest all those products. So, I normally say like check everything that you're buying for ingredients and if you're buying salt, like buy a good salt that doesn't have an anti-caking agent.

Ben Yeah.

Mikhaila I try to keep things fairly simple for people who are really sick and already overwhelmed with the idea of cutting everything out of their diet. So, I'm like, "For the first month, you know, buy the tastiest cuts you can afford to get through it. Cook it however you want to cook it." Like I use and it is definitely not the most bio hackery thing, but I use an air fryer almost all the time.

Ben Yeah.

Mikhaila Or a pressure cooker or something like that to make it easy.

Ben of those are also small. Like for a family of four or five people. You have a big one?

Mikhaila We have a pretty big one. It's like this wide.

Ben I'm not talking about restaurant owners who have big ones, but I haven't been able to find a good size air fryer.

Mikhaila We use a

Ben Like a Cuisinart or they've all just been too small for me and two 18-year-old boys and my wife.

Mikhaila You see there's four over there?

Ben Oh, you have five more of the small ones. I see.

Mikhaila [laughter]

Ben Okay. Um So, back to

Mikhaila in the There's two in the kitchen.

Ben Whatever I I didn't realize those are air fryers. Okay, now it's coming together. So, we got five air fryers so far and a little bone broth maker out there. Um is that what that is? Pressure cooker?

Mikhaila No, that's four air fryers and there's two in the kitchen and a pressure cooker in the kitchen.

Ben An air fryer is great, especially if you if you don't want to fry your food. Um but for the meat sourcing, do you

Mikhaila tell people

Ben about that?

Grass-Fed vs. Grain-Finished Beef: Does It Really Matter?

Mikhaila Not really. Like I and I've mostly So, now I I mostly get Snake River Farms cuz tastes excellent. I haven't And for a while when I first did the carnivore diet, I did grass-fed strictly because I was trying to remove as many variables, but when I switched from grass-fed to grass-fed grain finished, it didn't make a difference for any of my symptoms.

Ben Yeah.

Mikhaila And I find most people are limited. So, when they hear that they can need to do a certain quality of meat, they're just like that's just a step too much, too far. And I've seen people with arthritis who eat McDonald's burger patties and get better.

Ben Yeah.

Mikhaila So, I usually say eat the best that you can afford, but your focus right now is like eat meat, eat salt, don't eat anything else, and wait. And then when they start to get a little bit better, you can be like, "Okay, go to a regenerative farmer, eat grass-fed and stuff."

Ben Right.

Mikhaila But that's That I haven't noticed any difference with my symptoms with quality.

Ben burger to a McDonald's burger without the buns, and maybe try to make your own burger at home to use grass-fed, grass-finished beef in the burger you're making at home to eventually just the perfect burger.

Mikhaila Yeah, exactly. I don't even do grass-fed, to tell you the truth. I don't like, generally speaking, how it tastes compared to grass-fed, grain-finished.

Ben Yeah.

Mikhaila And I wouldn't say I'm the like utmost picture of health, but compared to being completely disabled with rheumatoid arthritis and like major depressive disorder, I'm doing pretty good.

Ben Yeah, the issue with with grass-fed, grass-finished is you can lose some flavor. You lose a little bit of marbling. Um and a lot of farmers aren't willing to weave in a lot of the other things that you can rotate into, say like a cow's diet, to actually improve the flavor of the meat, but take them off of just grass-fed, grass-finished. Like I get

Mikhaila Uh yeah.

Ben a whole cow now from a farm called Owen's Farm up by Spokane, Washington, and they have 12 different things that they feed the cows, everything from like pressed grape skins to alfalfa, to carrots, to different nuts, to grass. And so, they're getting a really healthy gut bacterial profile, which affects the quality of the meat and the health of the cow, but then that lends itself to better meat flavor. It's just hard to find farmers who are that dedicated to anything except we're just going to graze our cows and call it grass-fed grass-finished.

Mikhaila 100%

Ben They do add some flavor.

Mikhaila I've had like beef that was apple finished and carrot finished and stuff like that and that ends up tasting better. But most of what I get I think is grass-fed grain finished and I mean that seems fine and it's nice and marbled and I am pretty concerned about fat content. Like that's the other rule for eating ruminant meat and going to the carnivore diet is like eat the fattiest cuts you can kind of eat especially if you're trying to heal and if you can't afford the fattier cuts like steaks then well chuck is a lot cheaper than say a ribeye and they basically taste the same. But if you're eating leaner cuts then I tell people to go make friends with a butcher or even the grocery store cuz it's full of trimmings and a lot of the time the trimmings are thrown away

Ben Right.

Mikhaila and you can fry those with leaner cuts and make it like a a great dish and it's way cheaper than the fatty cuts.

Ben you have well you have a lot like toxins stored in the fat or

Mikhaila Yeah.

Ben Or or like people I mean people still get concerned about like the whole like saturated fat apoE gene thing. Like do you get pushed back on any of those fronts people who just want like lean protein?

Mikhaila You know I did most of my like the first part of my healing in Canada and I don't think we have as much of an issue in Canada with toxins stored in fat so I wasn't having corn-fed beef. I was really having grain-fed. And like I said I didn't notice any difference in my symptoms based on what I ate as long as it was beef or beef fat. But I probably wouldn't trust getting trimmings from like a low-end grocery store that has corn-fed meat. I probably wouldn't go that route. I'd go to a butcher and at least get a better cow than a you don't want to pick cows fat

Ben So you say you don't necessarily need to do grass-fed grass-finished. It sounds to me like you like you draw a difference between corn and grain when it comes to corn-fed versus grass-fed. I can taste the difference between corn-fed and grain-fed. I can kind of taste the corn and that kind that's like freaked me out a little bit but whenever I've had gone out to eat and had corn-fed beef it hasn't given me a flare-up. So usually I just say ruminant meat fatty ruminant meat salt with no caking anti-caking agent. And then if people are still having digestive problems or getting flushed or something when they eat then I say now you maybe have a histamine problem you need to look at and maybe switch to lamb or veal so those are usually lower in histamine or get something that's less aged and there's companies online that sell like much less aged beef but that's usually secondary. It's simple like beef fatty beef and salt pretty simple and then if you have histamine issues I usually recommend DAO and um It's interesting like the the thing about the fat I've I've had to tackle this just in the kitchen on culinary adventures with using a specifically a lot more tallow in cooking because that farm that I get the cows from it's a breed called Piedmontese and so the Piedmontese breed this is crazy story apparently they originated in the Middle East and lived in high climates in the Middle East with wide fluctuations in temperature.

Ben So these cows developed sweat glands which apparently is not common in cattle and when you look at temperature regulation in an animal one of the main reasons that you might get poor quality meat is because of high amounts of cortisol and stress and a lot of people think stress and they think like kfo food lot like cramped conditions but even if like a cow is just like out on some idyllic like pastoral field,

Mikhaila But hot.

Ben it will still be stressed if it's too hot or too cold. So, these are These are like huge cows that have sweat glands, but then have you seen like the mTOR knockout bulls or mTOR knockout mice or mTOR knockout little European boys or whatever? They're just

Mikhaila massively muscle bound. These we were actually talking about follistatin

Ben gene therapy before we started recording, and it's very, very similar fiber, like basically or or very, very similar pathway. This myostatin pathway, when you knock it out, you get unparalleled muscle growth in these cattle naturally. Not only the sweat glands, but they're huge cuz they have this myostatin inhibition. And so, then what happens is because the muscles grow so rapidly, the muscle fiber is like 1/16 the diameter of like a normal Angus cow.

The Truth About Seed Oils, Metabolic Health & Inflammation

Ben And that means that the chuck roast is the same tenderness as like the ribeye as a filet mignon. And if you want a medium rare, you have to pull it like 100°. Whereas normally it'd be like, you know, 140, 145. So, when I first got one of these cows, like I was overcooking everything. And then the only thing back to the feet or back to the fat is that they're so muscle bound and so lean. Like when they butchered my cow, I asked for the tallow, and the farmer sent me a picture of the beef like hanging, and there's just no fat at all. They're just one giant slab of muscle.

Ben So, when I cook it, I have to like I weave in usually like olive oil or beef tallow, and just like put extra fat on it. But it's a super weird breed, this Piedmontese cow.

Mikhaila That is weird. I've tried that. I've seen pictures. They're weird. I use suet tallow. I like that brand, Sulo. I know they had a recall recently, so I'll put that out here, but I don't think that was anything serious.

Mikhaila But they're good. Like, it's the only tallow brand I've found that it has never been rancid. Like, I used to buy tallow and I thought this is just what tallow tasted like and it's like it always had a rancid flavor. I was like, "Ugh." And Sulo doesn't ever. They sell these big vats, so I have like a vat this [clears throat] big in the fridge. Um

Mikhaila

Ben Yeah.

Mikhaila Does yours have a

Ben Um

Mikhaila So, that's an easy way to get fat, too.

Ben which tallow I think we're using the tallow that are made by the same people who are just raking it in hand over fist right now with the um the very pricey potato chips and uh corn chips ancient crunch. Yeah, masa. Masa chips and bandy chips. They're super good chips, but I think they have a tallow company now, too. It's called like American Tallow.

Mikhaila That makes sense. I haven't tried theirs.

Ben Yeah.

Mikhaila So, I won't say theirs are rancid.

Ben business model. It's like they're price insensitive products like pet products, things you get for your kids, and apparently now like eliminating seed oils from snack products like that. People will just pay

Mikhaila hand over fist, yeah.

Ben Yeah. Yeah. Enormous prices like like the like over and over again on subscription boxes for these chips that are like like they're like over $20 a bag.

Mikhaila Yeah, it's

Ben good. They're good.

Mikhaila Yeah. Have you How do you feel about the whole seed oil is terrible thing? You're on board with that?

Ben Um I think it's subjective. Uh if if you look at the inflammatory potential of a seed oil, particularly like a damaged seed oil that's been subjected to high amounts of pressure and high temperatures, usually in a cooking or a frying and particularly a re-frying process or a long storage time typically in a bottle that's get getting exposed to light and temperature, you do see an inflammatory response to that, but it tends to be more it tends to be magnified in people who have high levels of visceral fat. So, if you're already overweight and obese, you would respond better to eliminating seed oils from the diet than a lean person who might be able to do okay with a little bit of seed oil here and there. Thermal stress, cold fluctuation, and also heat stress affects your ability to be able to deal with the inflammation from seed oils. So, something like sauna practice, cold practice, there's a specific enzyme that's regulated by that process, and I don't remember the name of it, but it influences your inflammatory response to seed oils. So, that would be another one. Your omega-3 status, right?

Ben A lot of people get an omega-3 test, like an omega quant. Reference ranges are like I think 4% ish is acceptable, and I've interviewed a few omega researchers on my podcast who make a pretty good case for 8% or higher being a range that would be better to get into, and there is a protective effect of a higher omega count, like a higher omega-3 fatty acid intake on exposure to seed oils. So, and then activity, like like aerobic fitness and muscle mass. So, if you exercise, engage in thermal stress, stay relatively lean, and have some type of omega-3 consumption, then you would have less of an issue with seed oil consumption than other people, but the way that I look at it is I just don't eat foods that have been fried or heavily heated in those oils, and generally, I mean, we're like macadamia nut oil, extra virgin olive oil, beef tallow, some butter, and we don't really mess around with those oils much anyways, but I don't freak out of I don't I don't carry my I'm allergic to seed oil card to the restaurant like some of my friends do. I just think there's bigger fish to fry. Um but I think that if you're if you're overweight or obese, it's definitely something to be concerned more about.

Mikhaila Okay.

Ben Yeah.

Mikhaila That's kind of what I thought. Like how I figured out which foods were bad for me was literally testing one at a time and then having these horrifying reactions being like, well, I'm not going to eat that again. And I I remember when I was cutting things out like soy was really bad for me. Soybean oil was really bad for me, but canola oil I didn't really notice. Now, I haven't had canola oil in like 10 years cuz I like eliminated everything a long time ago, but I was I when everyone kind of switched the focus from like processed foods and some of these other foods to seed oils was like those were never just anecdotally those were never the foods that gave me like huge arthritic flare-ups and psychiatric issues versus like gluten for instance for me, um dairy was a really big one for me. Soy was a really big one. Those were probably the top three.

Mikhaila Um not that we eat them, but I was like

Ben Right. Yeah, it's interesting what you're saying because if you look like like a lot of those things that you just listed off like soy um gluten uh and even dairy in some cases, they're tend to be um particularly for the first two plant defense mechanisms that a lot of people are sensitive to cuz plants don't have I mean you've probably kicked this horse to death on your podcast, you know, teeth and hooves and claws and nails and can't defend themselves. And so, they've developed other mechanisms to either irritate the gut of a mammal to cause it to poop out the seed elsewhere so the plant can thrive or irritate the animal or make it sick so that it doesn't come back and like eat that plant out of existence, right?

Mikhaila I get that.

Ben mechanism.

Mikhaila [laughter]

Ben Um and so, oils compared to plants in that respect are not quite as much of an issue. Now, once they've been heated repeatedly and there's some of the underlying, you know, personal issues that we were just talking about, they are a problem, but I think you can make a case that a a high amount of what at low levels might be a hormetic stressor um and and in some people even at at levels of any amount would be a significant stressor, you know, like you experienced, um those are bigger issues than oils.

Why Mikhaila Sticks to Ruminant Meat

Mikhaila Yeah.

Ben Okay.

Mikhaila I'm glad people are switching to tallow anyway.

Ben Yeah.

Mikhaila [laughter]

Ben It's a it's a good step in the right direction.

Mikhaila Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Um it's just it's it's more stable. Um so, does your whole family eat the same way you do?

Ben Yeah. Um no, kind of. So, my brother doesn't. I don't know how he's like skirted through all the horrible

Mikhaila I was thinking like your husband and kids, but I guess your extended family.

Ben Extended family, yes. Husband, yes. When I met him, he was um he was eating basically how I was eating except he was having coffee. And then I told him he should stop drinking coffee, and he stopped drinking coffee.

Mikhaila Yeah.

Ben So, yes, we we did that. Um he missed the caffeine for a while, but he switched to caffeine pills. I That's the other thing is when people start I go

Mikhaila Oh, hardcore. He didn't He cut coffee and switched to caffeine pills.

Ben You know what? What I've found for people who are really sick is coffee gives you more of an inflammatory response than caffeine pills. It's not necessarily the caffeine that's the problem for everyone. I don't like how caffeine makes me feel, but it's the coffee. And we've tried mold-free coffees because we thought maybe the coffee beans might break

Mikhaila that's what I was going to ask.

Ben And I think with the like leaky gut we were dealing with, that still was a problem. Um but yeah, I usually say

Mikhaila Cuz it is a bean.

Ben It's a bean. I'm not great with beans, I think in general.

Mikhaila Yeah. Um so, he cut coffee and does he do like strict carnivore now?

Ben Um actually since we moved out of mold and did the SERS, most of the SERS treatment and did the parasite cleanse, um, he's probably once a week eating some other things and nothing processed but other foods.

Mikhaila Yeah.

Ben Um, but that's about once a week. He'll be like, "Ah, it's a Sunday. I'm going to order True Food Kitchen or something like that." And have a meal [clears throat] out. So, it's a lot less strict with than before, but like 95% of his food is still beef, but way less. Like, when we were in Miami, and he got really sick from mold, we tried to incorporate chicken and this was like corn corn-free, soy-free

Mikhaila Mhm.

Ben really nice quality chicken and it was like horrible, brutal reaction in mold.

Mikhaila Um

Ben And that kind of thing is completely calmed down. So, yes, he's on the diet, but like

Mikhaila Did you look into that at all? Like, if there's some kind of link between poultry, even like clean, fancy chicken poultry and mold and mycotoxin?

Ben Uh, all I found is that like the reason it's ruminant meat is because I wouldn't feel good when I ate fish, even if it was wild-caught salmon.

Mikhaila Yeah.

Ben And I'd feel worse eating chicken, even if it was corn-free, soy-free chicken. So, I was like, "Okay, for some reason I can't eat those things." Um it's much more tolerable now since all the like extra treatments. I don't know.

Mikhaila wild-caught salmon bandwagon, though.

Ben You're not?

Mikhaila I looked at it this way. So, so, I bow hunt and I will admit that if I, um, last whitetail I shot was like 8 mi from my house. I have no clue where that animal was feeding, what fields that it was feeding in.

Ben Yeah.

Mikhaila Where it traveled, you know, what neighbor sprayed with glyphosate and I have to accept that when I'm hunting. That that wild-caught animal, you know, that a lot of people would would, you know, equivalent with just like super clean meat, would technically be less healthy than me like buying and raising a deer and controlling its feed really, really strictly and then hunting that. And with fish, I mean, if you think about it, like you don't know where that fish has been. We know that the ocean has microplastics and metals and that the fish may have accumulated things from fish and farther down in the fish chain. And so I think if you can get, and this is what I do, if you can get fish that's farmed, but fish that's farmed and fed a tightly controlled diet and has been tested

Ben that.

Mikhaila Yeah. I can

Ben soy-fed fish. So I usually avoid farmed fish.

Mikhaila So I'm I have I'm part of an olive oil club. I'm part of a wine club and I'm part of a fish club. And the fish club is called Sitopia. And like SEA, and they source fish from these different farms. They got like 30-plus farms around the world. And they test all the fish. They heavily control the feed.

Mikhaila And they have everything from like Ora King salmon to scallops to shrimp. Um

Ben I've heard of Sitopia. I looked into them.

Mikhaila And it's flash frozen, just arrives by mail.

Ben Do you know if they avoid soy at the farms?

Mikhaila Uh I don't know.

Ben I avoided Sitopia, cuz I didn't know. I could reach out and ask what they're fed.

Mikhaila Yeah.

Ben But that's been the main reason to go to wild was

Mikhaila I would be surprised if they had soy in the feed because I think they're actually using a lot of other smaller fish in the feed.

Ben Yeah, that would be great.

Mikhaila Yeah. I interviewed the guy. I'd have to go back and listen. Um I don't think he mentioned soy, but that'd be easy to find out.

Ben carnivorous fish, too. The fact that they're like most of the farmed salmon is fed soy is like

Mikhaila Yeah. The guy who runs it is super nice. His name is James and he lives in Kauai, and he's just like obsessed with clean fish.

Ben Oh.

Mikhaila Yeah.

Ben That would be great. That sounds better.

Mikhaila Yeah. And the Ora King salmon, that's like the Wagyu of the sea. It's incredible. Like back to the omega stuff, like the omega content of it is through the roof. The DHA is through the roof. And so we um just to make sure that we have tight ties to our community and and we build relationships. We throw a dinner party typically once or twice a month.

Mikhaila And so I always have to figure out like how can I like make good food, but also feed like 25 30 people. And that's one of my favorite recipes is I'll get like 30 or king salmon filets from Sitopia and then I just line a baking pan with olive oil and put the salmon like skin side down and then the secret sauce on top. I don't know if this fits your diet, but um I use the um what's the the condiment company that is uh seed oil free?

Ben It's a Paleo Kitchen or

Mikhaila Uh not Paleo Kitchen, Primal Kitchen.

Ben Primal Kitchen.

Mikhaila So Primal Kitchen mayo like their chipotle lime mayo is amazing for this. Spread that on top of the salmon, um put salt on that on top of that, put a lemon slice on each, slide it in the oven for like 25 minutes. And it's just like the most incredible fatty salmon dish and people

Ben You're selling me.

Mikhaila People die over it and it's super easy. Like that that's like 20 minutes of prep time, slide it in the oven.

Ben Okay, I'm going to look into them.

Fish, Chicken, Toxins & Food Quality Concerns

Ben I I stopped eating so I I can now eat fish without like it used to like puff up my face. I used just used to get these weird reactions. That doesn't happen anymore. Uh but I find if I eat fish for dinner, I'm still hungry. Like I don't know how much fish I don't know if it's cuz I'm so used to eating beef, but I could probably eat I could eat pounds of fish.

Mikhaila fish, not like a lean white fish like cod or halibut.

Ben the wild salmon I'm getting is pretty lean. So it could just be that.

Mikhaila Yeah. No, this stuff is like dripping with fat. It's like salmon.

Ben Okay.

Mikhaila That'd be the way to go.

Ben I'm sold. Hopefully it doesn't have soy.

Mikhaila Yeah. Yeah.

Ben Yeah.

Mikhaila Um so back to the family, what about kids? Like if people um let's say they have a child and the child has rheumatoid arthritis issues or autoimmune issues, how do you recommend people structure a carnivore diet for a kid? What's it look like?

Ben And this is coming from me, and I'm not a doctor like we discussed earlier.

Mikhaila Um I think if I had had a limited diet when I was a kid, I could have avoided a hip and ankle replacement. Like I was on all the immune suppressants for from age 8 to 17, and it didn't stop my like joints from being eaten by my body. So I go pretty hard when someone who's has a 3-year-old goes, "They've had arthritis for a year." I go like, "What are they eating?" "Oh, they're eating a bunch of foods." So like, "Cut everything. They can just eat meat. They can."

Mikhaila Now with my kids, my kids don't just eat meat. But what I did was I went from breastfeeding and then the first introduction was fatty meat. So it was like beef fat.

Ben I mean, are you like dropping it in the in the Vitamix? Like the the cheese?

Mikhaila Well, with Scarlett, so my 8-year-old, I she did like baby-led weaning.

Ben Mhm.

Mikhaila And so she was like sucking on pieces of fatty steak, and I was kind of chopping off the fat cuz she liked the fat. And then eventually she just got old enough to do like breast milk and start eating little bits of the fatty steak.

Ben Yeah.

Mikhaila Um with my other two who are babies, I like we've done more of a Vitamix

Ben Mhm.

Mikhaila fatty meat thing. Um I did that with George. He's 2 and 1/2 now. And then once he was past the age of 2, I started some like apple, sweet potatoes, but he's really only eating He's tried seaweed. Sometimes he'll have a bite of these other things, but like he primarily eats meat, and then he has some of these other like single foods, but I've been pretty paranoid careful one food at a time because of how sick I was as a kid, and because they don't care. They don't need a huge variety by the time that they're 2 and 1/2.

Ben Right.

Mikhaila And if that can stop a whole bunch of different sauces and like

Ben and

Mikhaila Well, yeah. And like

Ben experience.

Mikhaila Like you don't want to give a little kid sugar. They go completely nuts with sugar. Like the first time Scarlett had sugar. Now, she'd had honey, but like cane sugar, some kid in kindergarten gave her like a bit of a chocolate bar.

Ben Yeah.

Mikhaila And she came home from kindergarten and was like running around the couch in circles and I was like, "Did you eat something at

Ben giving your your husband's caffeine pills. Um which you which you kind of inadvertently did because there's this guy uh he's on Instagram he's called the Mass Spec Guy and he has these mass spectrometers. He's like a college professor so he's access to mass spec tools and it allows you to get the molecular signature of anything and he'll send He seems to focus on vices. Like he'll choose like nicotine pouches and kratom bottles and um he's done gum and he does a lot of candy and he did a mass spec of a bunch of different chocolates out there and the average serving like packet or whatever of a Hershey's chocolate product like say M&M's range from 50 to 100 mg of caffeine in the chocolate which is far more than you'd get from like the natural cacao bean meaning that um not that I want to make accusations but it would appear that they're actually adding extra caffeine to Hershey's chocolate products. And even the even if it's the natural caffeine amounts basically if you're giving your kid Hershey's chocolate you should know that they're getting caffeine too which is kind of concerning from um not only a behavioral standpoint but also potential for things like growth stunting, bone density

Mikhaila That's wild.

Ben Yeah, isn't that crazy?

Mikhaila Yeah, I know I find um like we've got Scarlet to eat Hu Chocolate um and I find Hu Chocolate like in the last couple months I've been like, "Oh, I'm going to try some chocolate. I haven't had that in a decade." I find it pretty stimulating just by itself and that's like clean, high

Ben Who's

Mikhaila pretty good. I think my wife single-handedly keeps them in business

Ben They're they're good.

Mikhaila secret stashes in the pantry that I don't know if she knows that I know where it's at, but

Ben [laughter]

Mikhaila That's funny.

Ben Yeah, she's a huge fan. Um so, it's it seems like it's not that difficult with the kids, but when it comes to things like um just like snacks that you take out of crinkly packaging, are there good

Mikhaila Yeah.

Ben um good products out there? There was one company, I want to know the ones that you like, but they were called Carnivore Snacks. I think it was spelled with an X. And these were like, back to the fat, like they were just like, not like beef jerky, like fatty slices of almost like dried ribeye. um just like straight out of the bag, like beef jerky, but way better.

Mikhaila Carnivore Snacks, so we make our own jerky. So, that's a snack. I keep it in the freezer, so it doesn't get stale. Carnivore Snacks is good. Carnivore Crisps are good. I mostly PC jerky, which I like. It's way leaner, um but I don't have to worry about rancid fat, which I can really I'm like so sensitive to any of that.

Mikhaila So, I eat a lot of PC jerky. For kids,

Ben What's PC jerky?

Mikhaila It's like I it's definitely not a I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, internet, but I I wouldn't say it's a health brand like Carnivore Snacks or something, but they make different jerkies.

Ben Okay.

Mikhaila And they made a plain one. So, it's just salt. And I really like it. It's like eating It's almost like eating chips, but there's not there's not fat, so it's very lean, but I like that. And I'll eat that with the suet tallow on top and some salt. And it kind of tastes like saltine crackers and butter. But given I haven't had saltine crackers in a decade, but like it's good.

Mikhaila

Ben I actually have a stash of um they're not Carnivore Snacks right now, some other company. They're a little bit more dry, a little bit more of a cracker texture, and I use them like crackers. Like if I'm doing guacamole, or a lot of times like I'll have a side on my salad and you literally use them just like crackers.

Mikhaila Jerky is is just like crackers.

Ben Yeah.

Mikhaila And with tallow it's really good if you haven't had tallow spread on there with salt.

Ben Make jerky, are you using like one of your half dozen air fryers for this or

Mikhaila Uh no, I have a massive, it's probably in our kitchen, massive dehydrator, a stainless steel dehydrator that's like this big. And has like 12 trays.

Ben Wow.

Mikhaila like shabu shabu.

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Mikhaila I got used to get rouladen in Canada, which is I think it's just round roast cut for a German dish. And shabu shabu is I don't know. It's also round roast, I think, or New York's cut really thin.

Ben Okay.

Mikhaila And I just line them up on the trays and cover them in salt and stick them in in the dehydrator.

Ben They're sliced. They're pre-sliced.

Mikhaila Okay. And then just just salt and dehydrate.

Ben Yeah, like a lot of salt and dehydrate for like 9 hours and then I ziplock bag them and put them in the freezer.

Mikhaila Incredible.

Ben So we eat that. But there are package snacks that we use cuz I didn't want Scarlett to be like go to school and I don't know, be made fun of. I was the kid that always brought leftovers to school and stew and everyone had those lunchables that were like poison. But I'd be like, oh I I don't have one of those and they'd be like, ew, what's the stew?

Mikhaila Yeah.

Ben I'm like, stew, it's leftovers, it's good. But I was like, I don't want that for Scarlett.

Mikhaila crinkly packaging, no toy.

Ben Yeah, no toy.

Mikhaila wooden spoon.

Ben Um I liked there's a company called Bear, I think, Bear fruit snacks and they make little tiny fruit gummies.

Mikhaila Yeah, I've seen these. Yeah.

Ben So she used to love those before she was like six and now she doesn't like them anymore. There's Bear fruit snacks. There was another There's like a Solely fruit snack. Um there's another one that does like almost like tape fruit tape or whatever. Um so there's quite a few like pure fruit snacks. So she'll take some of those. Um when she was really little, I did Carnivore Bars a lot because she loved Carnivore Bars.

Ben Do you know that company?

Mikhaila No.

Ben It's like pemmican.

Mikhaila Okay.

Ben So, you can keep them forever.

Mikhaila Pemmican's incredible. There's a company called US Wellness Meats that I used to get a ton of pemmican from.

Ben This is pemmican.

Mikhaila I still order from them if I want, you know, back to my lean cow, like a big fatty like French cut ribeye. Um US Wellness Meats also has like organ meats, they've got pemmican. That's the company. I think they're out of Nebraska, one of the one of the Midwest states. Um Okay, so that's a pretty good lineup of snacks. I This might be a little bit of a change of direction, but with all of the things that you've done, like the parasite cleanses and the the dietary changes and the peptides, um have you gotten into like the fringes of the biohacking world with things like like blood filtration therapies, plasma exchange, and things like

Ben plasma exchange. I do want to get into that. When I got sick in Miami from mold, I was like I was so ill. So, I did EBOO then, which I liked.

Mikhaila Yeah. Which for people listening, it's is a extracorporeal blood ozonation and oxygenation,

Ben Yeah.

Mikhaila Um where they pull your blood out and they basically ozonate it and clean it and then it goes back into your body.

Ben Yeah. And that I felt I could feel. Now, I don't know if that's from like I don't know exactly what that was from, but it felt good. So, I did that a couple of times. I've done ozone a lot because I can feel it noticeably afterwards. I feel better. Um I haven't done My parents have done stem cells cuz I was more concerned about their health.

Ben I didn't do I haven't done any stem cells. I haven't done any of the plasma exchanges. I haven't gone I'm like aware of all the deeper biohacking things, but I've mostly been pregnant for like 3 years, so that's really put a So as soon as I had some money to do that, I was like

Mikhaila out of your body in Tijuana and passed through a filter and yeah. They're interesting though, you know, as far as the concept of EBOO pulling something out of your body, filtering it or cleaning it with something like ozone and then putting it back in is kind of like the the hot topic in in biohacking and detox right now, especially for people who have like Lyme, mold, mycotoxins.

Ben done any that had noticeable effects afterwards?

Mikhaila Yeah, so there's levels. The lowest kind of like easiest to access level in most states and internationally is a therapeutic plasma exchange, a TPE, where they will pull out some plasma and then typically because you do pull out some of your body's own products when you do that, they will usually replace the plasma with albumin, [snorts] which is just basically synthetic albumin and then some type of vitamin and mineral IV.

Ben Yeah.

Mikhaila basically trying to like build back the blood. And that's pretty effective for a lot of people who just want to do like the oil change for the body thing. And then you can also in the state of Texas do young plasma replacements, where it's a similar protocol. You get your plasma taken out, but instead of putting albumin and IVs back in, they actually take young human donor plasma and put that back into your body.

Ben Have you done that?

Mikhaila Um I've done that a couple of times. Um

Ben of

Mikhaila it? You do feel remarkably better. You feel how you would imagine you'd feel if you put an 18-year-old's plasma, like 10 1-liter bags of 18-year-old plasma back into your body. But and back to the I'm not a doctor thing, that's not without risk. I mean, it is somebody else's biologics. So now kind of like So So if you look at young plasma, you It's like a soup. You've got exosomes, you've got growth factors, you've got stem cells, you've got you know, all of your normal minerals and biologics and some small peptides and and all of that is going into your body, which would make sense that you're going to feel that even more than just getting albumin and minerals and vitamins put back into your body.

Mikhaila

Ben Mhm.

Mikhaila So it's the difference between like an oil change and what's technically called like parabiosis, right? Like taking something old out and putting something young back in. But the risk for a lot of people, even though these are pre-screen donors with filtered plasma, is still something that um is there because, you know, it is somebody else's tissue. The next thing that I'm looking at, and there's not a lot of people doing this right now, but it makes sense on paper. Um I'm actually going to try this tomorrow in Austin, Texas, is to get the plasma taken out, but put back in like a stem cell exosome soup. Cuz there's a type of stem cells that are really small. They're called MUSE cells, and MUSE cells are known for, compared to like a normal, say like umbilical derived stem cell, of having a very, very low amount of immune reactions or inflammation.

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Mikhaila Uh they're much smaller, they travel to the site of injury much more readily, and they're kind of like the new thing in stem cells. And then exosomes are basically what they use to signal. So what I'm going to do is get old plasma taken out, and then replace that with the albumin and the vitamin IVs and minerals, but then also stem cells and exosomes. And even though I haven't done that yet, that would theoretically be like a way to get the effects of like young plasma replacement without actually using actual human plasma. Instead using stem cells and exosomes. Um and so [clears throat] that's the difference between doing like an oil change for the body via something like EBOO or therapeutic plasma exchange and doing like an actual like anti-aging type of hack.

Ben That's cool.

Mikhaila And then you can also do blood. Um I did this [clears throat] uh in with the company called Lumadati in Tijuana where they use a filter. It was a filter designed to to adhere to spike proteins. It's a heparin based filter that's almost like a fly trap for spike protein. And the blood comes out of your body. It's crazy. They actually have a catheter in your jugular in your neck and it's got to stay in there the whole 3 days that you're in Mexico.

Mikhaila So you're literally like

Ben Oh my god.

Mikhaila going getting wheeled in wheelchair from this actually pretty nice hospitals in Mexico now. I thought it was just all like you know tequila and bars and just complete um I thought I thought Tijuana was a pretty dirty place. But there's actually really nice luxury hotel, hospital. People go there for medical tourism now. And so you have this catheter in your neck though for 3 days. So you're getting wheeled from the hospital over to the hotel back and forth each day. You're in the hospital bed for anywhere from 3 to 5 hours each day and it's pulling your blood out, passing it through this filter and then the blood goes back into your body.

Mikhaila So it's literally filtering like whole blood. People who have long COVID have seen pretty good results from that. Um I did it out of just sheer curiosity. Just kind of an immersive journalistic stint where I wanted to see what blood filtration was actually like. But then there are other filters. So that one's called the Seraph filter that they use for spike protein. That's the heparin base filter.

Mikhaila

Ben Wow.

Mikhaila another one called the marker that's used for microplastics. So, it pulls microplastics

Ben Right.

Mikhaila So, it's kind of like a different filter for uh different issue. And then kind of like the last thing would be something called iontophoresis. And this is something that you'll find a lot more in like European biological medicine. Like Germany is a place where you can do these type of things. There's a clinic called uh Lonzerhof there that does this. But that's actually heating up the body. So, it's kind of like a combination of hyperthermia and plasma filtration.

Mikhaila So, they can like

Ben filter a lot more plasma at once. They're not putting back in, you know, stem cells, exosomes, young human plasma, or anything like that. But as far as a filtration goes that's theoretically one of the better ways to filter just because you're combining plasma filtration with hyperthermia. Um but I think kind of like the coolest idea is getting old plasma taken out and then replacing that with albumin, stem cells, and exosomes.

Mikhaila That does sound cool.

Ben Yeah.

Mikhaila And that's more from a longevity standpoint or if you've been exposed to an environmental toxin, right, to help detox? Yeah. And so, if you've been exposed So, antiviral, you know, mold, microtoxin, Lyme, EBV, some of these things that you might want to pull out of the blood, you could just stop at therapeutic plasma exchange, um series of EBOO treatments, iontophoresis, or something like that. And then if you wanted to do that and then also kind of like get the rejuvenation effect or the, you know, so-called like anti-aging effect by putting stuff back in, that's where you'd do like um you know, people call like the blood boy stuff, right? Like like get the actual young stuff put back in or use stem cells or exosomes.

Ben I love that that's a thing that people are How long has that been around? Cuz I I it's been like a trope in movies being like, "Yeah,

Mikhaila Yeah, like I mean like I mean ever since the days of of the vampire, I guess, so centuries, but as far as it being somewhat accessible um to us, I think it's been less than a decade. And again, like Texas is the only state where it's actually legal to do the young plasma. Yeah.

Ben Wild.

Mikhaila Yeah.

Ben Okay.

Mikhaila Yeah.

Ben Well, that's interesting.

Mikhaila Yeah.

Ben My goodness. Okay, before we run out of time on this, um this is a really simple question, but what does your morning look like? And I want to know your travel hacks, because I heard you travel a lot, and I always get walloped when I travel. But like, morning routine first.

Mikhaila Um and it's interesting cuz the two kind of parallel, because if you have a good morning routine that you can take some semblance of on the road, then it is a little bit of a circadian rhythmicity, health, productivity, energy hack, because you're kind of simulating some of the thing same things that you're doing at home. Um so, what that looks like is looking at it from more of a standpoint of not specific things that you do, but specific categories that you try and fit in in the morning. Um so, for me, first thing, and I can easily do this on the road, is I pour into myself spiritually. And this is just like the woo-woo, esoteric stuff. I wake up, I usually put on like a really good like um it's typically like a spiritual music track, like, you know, whatever, Hillsong or Bethel Worship or some old hymn or just some spiritual musician or uh I do the daily audio Bible. So, that does a passage from the Old Testament, New Testament, and then Psalms and Proverbs. That's like the first 20 minutes of my day is just me and the Bible and God and prayer and typically there's a lot of gratitude poured into that, too, just because I'm I'm not starting off with the podcast or an audiobook or opening social media or whatever.

Mikhaila So, the phone's in airplane mode. I'm tooling around getting ready for the day, kind of building myself up spiritually, and I finish that with prayer. So, whenever all that stuff ends, sometimes I'm in the living room, sometimes I'm already out in my office by then, but I say a prayer. And it varies from day to day. It's usually just me pouring out my worries, my cares, my anxieties, you know, people that I've told them that I'd pray for. It's just basically my personal time with God. And then I do 15 to 20 minutes of deep tissue work, like arm swinging, bouncing up and down, body twists, like tai chi moves.

Mikhaila I have this whole mashup of different moves that I do, and it's not the same, but I always start my watch and give myself at least 15 minutes just to wake up the whole body. I mean, it's like slapping and foam rolling, and I like this because when I'm traveling, I can get up, I can be tooling around the hotel room, brushing my teeth, putting on, you know, washing my face, putting on product, um stretching, whatever, and still listening to songs and listening to the Bible. So, you can do both of those at once. And then I go in the kitchen and I get coffee or tea, and then I do um emails combined with red light therapy.

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Mikhaila So, I have these two red light panels at my desk, and I sandwich myself in between these red light panels, and the one in front of me is just low enough to where I can like reach around it and be on my keyboard. So, I'm basically getting morning sunlight equivalent, like targeted, what's called photobiomodulation, on my body for the first 20 minutes, and I'm just standing there naked in between two panels replying to emails. Uh and I have the Joovv red light helmet on, too. So, I've really got the helmet, the panels, um and you feel amazing. It's just there's like this endorphin release and, you know, it's way easier than dragging my laptop out into the, you know, freezing 40° patio to try and catch some sunrise. And you feel really good afterwards and during that time all I'm doing is just looking at the calendar for the day and making the plans for the day. I'm not jumping into deep work or anything like that.

Mikhaila Um when I travel, typically I do the same thing by grabbing my phone and going outside for a walk. And if it's nice, I'm usually like barefoot. Literally, I walked 20 minutes this morning laps around the hotel in the sunshine barefoot. Um just for the grounding, the earthing, the connection to the planet. Um and then we kind of like officially start the day as a family at 7:00 a.m. So, at 7:00 a.m. we have this big family huddle where everybody meets up in the living room and if it's a nice day on the back patio and we talk about how everybody slept and what everybody's doing that day and we um we check in with each other, we ask if anybody has any needs for that day, we talk about who's making what for dinner cuz we're usually all pitching in, you know, who's taking the cars and where and it's just like this family meeting. That's every single day.

Mikhaila And then I read the family something from the Bible and teach them from the Bible and we just work our way through the entire Bible throughout the year. We pray together as a family and then typically once every couple weeks we nix all that and we just have a giant dance party for like 10 or 15 minutes where we just play songs, dance, but we always, like since the boys were like 6 years old, we have this big morning family party and we do the same thing at 7:00 p.m. We like all meet at 7:00 p.m. right before dinner and just all get together and hang out and, you know, go through father-son book club and sing a song and pray and so we have so that's how I keep myself from being a

Ben at you. That was like the nicest morning routine. I ask questions pretty frequently and I That was like by far the nicest morning routine I've ever heard.

Mikhaila so, so that keeps me from being a workaholic because I know at 7:00 a.m. I got to be with the family and then at 7:00 p.m. I got to be done with work and ready for our big family party for our dinner party. And then after we have the family huddle, then I work out. My boys are usually out in the gym doing their own routine. We used to work out together and now we're just One of them's playing rugby, one's playing lacrosse and we're just kind of doing our own thing. But, we're all out in the gym together and then I don't let anything get on my schedule before 10:00 a.m.

Mikhaila So, no calls, no podcasts, no consults. Not because I don't work until 10:00 a.m., but I don't want to adhere to anybody else's schedule until 10:00 a.m. So, if I've got some extra projects that I want to work on, I'm I'll get up at 4:30 and work until 6:30 and then do the red light and then go to the family huddle. Or if I'm a little tired, I'll sleep until 7:00 and we'll have the family huddle at 7:30 and then I've got a shorter workout and you know, I'll switch the morning around a little bit, but I never have like a Zoom at 9:00 or 7:00.

Ben Yeah, I hate those.

Mikhaila And

Ben I've moved those, too.

Mikhaila Yeah. And you miss out on some stuff, but like it's worth it to me that to have like a luxurious morning and then once I do start working, like I'm just like a horse with blinders and I feel like I can get deep work in because the morning's just like so protected and my body's so dialed, I'm connected to family and I'm just ready to roll. So.

Ben Wow, that was great.

Mikhaila Yeah. And then last thing Last thing. So, you asked about travel, I I do a lot of that except the family huddle part when I travel. So, I'm always getting red light, grounding, earthing, movement, prayer.

Ben red light?

Mikhaila What's that?

Ben Or you go outside?

Mikhaila I I typically do the sunlight. Um I have some little portable red light devices, but it's more like if I get an injury, whatever I tweak my knee playing pickleball or whatever. Um but, if you look at travel, it's very simple. In the same way that no matter whether you're traveling or you're at home, you have your basic sleep hygiene principles, right? Room is cold, room is dark, no stress, meaning no work in bed, and then sound. Use sound to cover up ambient noises. So, cold, darkness, no stress, and some sort of cover-up sound.

Mikhaila That goes with me on the road, but then the only thing you really need to be familiar with, I think, to get like 90% of the circadian rhythmicity issues solved when you travel is this term called zeitgebers, which is a German term that means time keepers. And there are certain things that get your body aligned to a new circadian rhythm much faster. They are light, meaning presence of bright light or even the use of like blue light producing glasses. There's one company called Ayo, one called Re-Timer. The company Raw Optics makes lenses that concentrate blue light rather than block blue light. So, you want to get blasted with that in the morning, and then I have a little red light headlamp that I use in my hotel room at night to get around like everything's blocked at night. Temperature, super easy, keep things cold.

Mikhaila I do call the folks at Jasper and try to get them to deliver a portable HEPA air filter to a hotel if I'm in a major city. Cuz the air quality is is a big one, but that's not really a time keeper, it's just an extra bonus. But temperature, super cold, and what that means is that cold temperature at night jump-starts nighttime sleep drive, and warm in the morning. So, if you can do sauna, I got in the hot tub this morning, anything that can get the body warm, even if you don't normally take a nice long steamy shower, you do that, but you try to get the body hot in the morning and cold at night. And the hot in the morning, cold at night is especially important if you've crossed multiple time zones. So,

Ben Cool. Okay.

Mikhaila temperature and then the last two are food. If you're normally a breakfast skipper, you would actually want to eat a higher protein breakfast in the time zone of wherever it is that you've traveled to. So, uh I usually like to work out fasted, but like I was recently in Germany and I would go down to the breakfast room and have a little bit of egg and I'll just have them like eggs and sprouts and a little piece of toast and then I'd go hit the gym just because food is such a powerful driver to jump start the circadian rhythm and then not eating outside of the normal eating zone of the time frame that you're in unless you're only there for a very short period of time, in which case you keep eating at the normal time zones of your where you're going to be back home cuz you want to stay in that time zone. So, it kind of depends on how long you're going to be where you're at. And then the last time keeper um is movement and that one's pretty easy. Like movement session typically timed within first 3 hours of waking and nothing like 3 hours leading up to bedtime as far as intense exercise and that solves like 90% of circadian rhythmicity issues for people if they can nail um the temperature, the light, the food, and the movement when they travel.

Ben Cool.

Mikhaila Yeah.

Ben Okay.

Mikhaila And the NAD patch.

Ben Yes. I'm definitely going to look into that. Okay, cool. Well, Ben, thank you very much for making time. It's nice to finally meet you in person.

Mikhaila Yeah. It'll be cool to to introduce you to my audience, too. I'm surprised we've never done a podcast. I don't think you've been on my podcast before, have you?

Ben I don't think so, no.

Mikhaila I've I've been podcasting for too long. I forget my guests, but I'm pretty sure you have been on my podcast, so this will be a first.

Ben Well,

Mikhaila Michaela Fuller, the carnivore expert.

Ben Ben Greenfield, like OG biohacker.

Mikhaila Awesome. Cool. Thanks for having me.

Outro

Ben Thank you for having me.