Orthodoxy, Protestantism, and Fairytales | Jonathan Pageau

Old Disney magic vs. new meh

is it kind of dumbing down in the story it's like why are you doing that isn't your purpose to accompany your child up the hill so if you just give them the most little satisfaction of the moment you're not doing them a service Fair Tales are really the closest thing besides the Bible right that we have that are like Bible stories they are these very short stories that compress a lot of information in them and that have almost infinite levels of understanding so you're a kid you hear these stories that have all this Insight in it but you don't have access to the Insight whether you know it or not it'll kind of tune you that's what fairy tales are about a lot of the newer animated movies and just like this is terrible the old Disney movies didn't have that as much no the whole Disney movies were made in a way again that would appeal both the children you know and to the adult you watched The Lion King and that's not even that old of a Disney movie right it's like the '90s you know as an adult you really see you know these deep patterns of Mythology and religious storytelling and if if only we could re awaken that type of story Jonathan Pou welcome to my podcast it's great to see you Michaela nice to have you on again yeah and in person this time yeah this is way better yeah defin much more comfortable so I invited you on because last time you came on we talked about your H fairy tale book that you had put out which is right here Snow White and the Widow Queen and you've recently published a new one Jack and the Fallen Giants yeah so it's a version of Jack and the beanock uh you know trying to have a little bit of a Twist on it but it's basically the Jack and the beanock story that we all know as kids um with some elements let's say some Illusions to kind of biblical symbolism and then some a few things in it that are at least in my insight trying to help people see what the story is about because it's such a weird story you know I I I love that story when I was a kid but it was so strange there were so many things about it that I didn't understand because even as like a 10-year-old boy I thought well isn't stealing wrong like why is Jack going up there and stealing from the Giants then also why why does he steal like gold and then a chicken that lays golden eggs and then ultimately he steals a harp it's like what does he steal a harp it's so odd oh okay yeah and so I've been kind of meditating on the story for obviously my whole life just like I meditated on the on Snow White and the other fairy tale that I'm writing and and I kind of think I figured it out uh you know at least one aspect of it and so trying to kind of add some of that richness to the story itself you know so what is the chicken laying the golden egg yeah know it's like what is going on so if you think about it you know the story of Jack for those who don't know it Jack is a poor boy his father is not there he's raised only by his mother so she's a widow probably or abandoned woman and so because of that she's poor and their family is poor and that poverty plays itself out because their cow uh is running out of milk you know and so you cannot it's a really complex symbolism like some of it also has to do with the fact that his mother is also doesn't have a man so that idea of like running out of milk or like running out of fertility running out of world right that's kind of what it seems to be alluding to but then also in some ways he's kind in this feminine world because he doesn't have a father and he has a mother and a cow and now he's about to discover what it is it's a Coming of Age story he's about to kind of become a man and so that's all of the elements have to do with that and so he his mother says you have to sell the cow CU she doesn't produce milk anymore he goes into town and then he trades it for a bunch of seeds which is already pretty weird right it's like why is he trading it for seeds and there's a lot of stuff going on in the story there are many levels one of them is that he's also becoming a man and so he's he's discovering seed that's part of what's going on like it's his connection to masculinity right like a 12-year-old boy or something and but it's not just sexual it's we have to be careful not to think that it's just about sex it's not it's about identity because that's what a seed is Right a seed is it's like a pattern an identity of the plant but the plant isn't there right inside the seed is hidden the the the whole pattern of how the plant's going to play out but it's not you don't have the plant so it's the opposite of a cow in a way right cow is just a bunch of meat like a bunch of milk and now he has this little thing this little seed and and he trades one for the other like potential yeah like like identity without body yet you know it's kind of like if you have a vision for something like a plan but you haven't played it out yet right you you have to be a special kind of person to understand that actually an idea or a plan is really valuable yes because it's by that plan that you can make other things happen so that's kind of what he's discovering but he doesn't totally get it yet you know he's also a little boy he brings it home and he's all excited he's got magic seed he's got magic beans and shows his mom and his mom's like what he do basically okay now we have nothing to eat so what do we what do we do but the seed is also a pattern is the pattern of food it's not really much food yet it's just few you can't live off a few beings but if you understand the pattern of food then maybe you could live you could have food forever right but that takes while it takes time and he has to figure that out and so that's how it starts so it's about it's about that it's about in some way becoming a a man and then also discovering what meaning is and purpose is and pattern is but then not knowing quite how to play with that yet so his mom throws a seed out then in the morning wakes up with the giant beanock so yes there is an aspect of that which is a little bit tongue and cheek like a little bit of a young boy wakes up with a giant bean stock it's part of the story like it's part of the story but it's not just like again it's obviously not just about sex it's that symbolism is included into the whole idea of discovering what meaning is you know and so he starts to climb up the bean stock and then he finds gold right so a good way to understand it is he finds value right something that's valuable and you know gold is better than food in some ways right obviously food is more immediate right you need food to live but Gold's better than food because I can buy food with gold you buy anything not bad yeah so he gets that he understands it's like a hierarchy of patterns comes down with the gold gives it to his mom but then what happens if you just have a bunch of money the money runs out right it's not enough so does he go up and down multiple times yeah he goes up and down like three times so he goes up gets the gold brings it to his mom but then the money runs out so he's missing something so what's better than gold right it's like what's better than gold is how you get gold yeah that's much better so that's why he he goes up and now he finds a chicken that lays golden eggs because he's not now getting money he's getting basically the way to get money that's what he's getting it's like you know we say give a man of fish and he'll eat for a day but teach him how to fish and he'll eat forever that's basically what Jack is dealing with he kind of figuring that out comes back down again and then it's the weirdest part that's the part that took me years to understand which is the third time he goes up he gets a golden heart a magical heart and I'm thinking what the hell is the relationship between the gold the chicken that lays golden eggs and the Golden Harp right uh and I and I'm pretty sure I think I figured it out which is it has to do with what he discovered at the outset it has to do with pattern right because that's what music is you know there's an ancient idea that the the cosmos makes music Call It The Music of the Spheres a way to understand it is that there are patterns in the world that there are patterns that are like meta patterns that aren't just the how you make money or money that can buy food but it's something like the pattern of everything you know maybe that's a way of understand it like the logos right and that's what he gets that's the final thing he gets is he kind of gets the music that can now in some ways make it possible for him to do anything you know and you have people like that that you I mean I'm talk now very practically like you'll meet people that have figured something out about the world that means that they can then apply it to almost anything like they're not Specialists right they're not experts on anything but they've kind of figured out something about how the world Works which means that they'll always be successful because it's a meta pattern right it's not just so that's the story that's basically the story of Jack yeah that's way more interesting than my version of Jack and the beanock what do you mean well I mean I just remember it from when I was a kid and it was just like yeah it's a funny story with giants if do you go into what the Giants represent so are those problems or the Giants the Giants these are also the questions that I asked myself when I was younger and I was growing up I was like why are giants in heaven right aren't there isn't Heaven the place for like angels and spirits and stuff aren't Giants usually like hidden underground and caves and stuff and so I think the best way to understand it is the giant is something like the Obstacle of masculinity the the aspect of masculinity that's an obstacle or the aspect of pattern or the aspect of purpose that's a that's an obstacle to you so if you think about it you know anybody's has dealt with this you you you're hiring a company then now you realize that the people above you some of them they actually want to prevent you from succeeding because they see you as a threat to their order you know and so this young boy that comes in and all of a sudden there are these men that are there and now these men are like giants that will devour you because all they want is basically oh you know it's like you see see that with people find jobs too it's like oh I love the fact that you work as long as it credits me then we're good to go and so I'm going to eat you right I'm going to devour you and I'm going to use your energy for myself and so that's the image of the giant that wants to eat the the boy like it's like yeah this boy is in my house I'm going to take his energy and his power for myself so in some way it's the Obstacle of so it's all the corruption of the of the hierarchy all the the officials that are just doing things for their own or the boss that doesn't really want to help people kind of move up or doesn't want to he doesn't even care about the purpose of the company but just wants to basically gather power and influence for themselves so in that case you can kind of understand how the the man in the heaven and to some extent can be something like a giant right like a king or something and so that's the way that I understand the the Giant in the heavens that's cool yeah why did I decide to build an online university well there is a crisis now in higher education the president of Harvard University resigned today weeks calling for the genocide of Jews violate Penn's code of conduct we have a problem of affordability and cost spiraling student loans we have a group think emerging and that warps the entire academic Enterprise I experimented with putting my lectures online and found that that I could teach far more people at very low cost than I could at the University and I thought well why not scale that what I'm hoping to do is to find the best lectures in the world and to bring them to as wide as possible an audience he came to me and he basically said I want you to do the best course that you've always wanted to do we want to bring you the highest quality education possible at the lowest possible price it's extremely highle content that anybody can use to educate themselves and it's available to everybody well that would be [Music] good I think it's funny cuz I got celled at the University so I could try to return the favor because you get bosses or you get people that you work with whether they're above or below you that do understand that the more everybody can succeed the more everybody can succeed right if you end up pushing people down and taking for what they do then things eventually fail like you can't operate a business like that but there are definitely a lot of people out there that do grow up and they want that power even though that I don't think that's actually what leads to success do you have any idea so what happens to people it really is like it's the sin it's the ultimate sin it's the sin of Pride it's the sin the sin of the devil it's the sin of Adam and Eve it's you know basically the root of sin is thinking you know this is for me right this is not serving some higher goal like it's not serving some higher purpose it's like no no no this is mine and this is for me so something that's actually good right becomes perverted because it's try you're trying to capture it for yourself and that's that you know and that's what leads to corruption and that's what leads to you know companies failing or States failing is because the policeman right instead of thinking as a policeman I'm there to serve order and here to serve the high are good it's like oh wait a minute I'm in a position of authority yeah I'm in a position of power huh that's actually an opportunity for me to gather that to myself to become like a little Tyrant you know like a little micro Tyrant so you can have tyrants like that at every level you know we all we often think that we always think that like the highest level of authorities they're the ones that are corrupt you know they're the ones that that that fall into corruption but you know we do it for petty reasons we do it in families we do it in all kinds of you know people parent parents who you know how can I say this parents who are jealous of their children uh all kinds of perverted situations where people don't realize that in fact like you said the best result comes when everybody is kind of brought along like when you kind of lift everybody with you you know that's when you actually get the most for all of us right for everyone involved you get the most and successful companies right you see that usually that's how they at least started that there was something about the excitement and the energy in the company where everybody felt like they were able to do great things and were accomplishing wonderful things that's why they kind of raise up and then sometimes they become Giants and once they're Giants then they start to get corrupted and yeah it's kind of yeah I don't think it takes very many people to get into some sort of organization for that to happen yeah like what even Just One Bad Apple can take out a number of people around them because I suppose in order to aim for the highest good you also have to have trust in everybody you're working with to be doing the same thing yeah which is tricky moving towards the same goal yeah right and but it's and it's wonderful when you see it it's like a dance right you see these see people working together and they're so excited and there's this just Joy of being together and moving towards a purpose and you can feel it like you can actually sometimes feel it in the room when you walk into places like that um and then you can also feel the opposite you know when you walk into a place and it's like airports yeah everybody yeah everybody's just like and nobody's nobody wants to step out of line nobody wants to say anything nobody you know and so you can you can see it and you're right that that leads ultimately to failure sometimes it takes a while because you got a giant you Giants take a long time to starve so if you you have big huge things that get corrupted then they kind of surf for a while or and they just basically are it takes a while for them to decompose so sadly sometimes it takes a while for the corruption to show in giant systems you know mm that's a that's an it's you know it's weird because we're we move from Jack to talking about this but that's what fairy tales are about fairy tales are really the closest thing besides the Bible right that we have that are like Bible stories in the sense that they are these very short stories that compress a lot of information in them and that have almost infinite levels of understanding uh and like you said when you're a kid and you hear the fairy tales you don't understand any of that and it's actually totally fine you actually don't have to understand any of that because in some ways it is similar to the story of Jack it's more like a seed being planted in you right so you're a kid you hear these stories that have all this Insight in it but you don't have access to the inside you're just basically having a seed planted in you and then that will play itself out with whether you know it or not it'll kind of tune you right like a tuning fork yeah yeah that makes sense yeah or like the Bible you can understand it on different levels and still pick up the same overall pattern you get the yeah you get so basically like you know the story of Jack at the simple level for a child it's like this is really exciting young boy defies difficult odds goes up into the heavens faces these dangerous Giants you know and nonetheless is able to come out of it with but be careful watch watch out for those giants watch out for those big guys that want to devour you watch out for the bullies watch out for all that stuff and so just implicitly then the child you know it's obviously not just one story but like in being exposed to these different types of stories will make them attentive will recognize even without knowing it you know that giant that wants to eat you like oh yeah it's kind of like that you know that's what's going on here I think that's so important too for people to understand the difference between Good and Evil at that level yeah because like I I know and we talked about this in our last podcast a bit a bit about Disney changing you know core parts of fairy tales and and getting rid of I think a lot of what they got rid of was the evil part yeah everything was kind of nuanced through you're like there's bad gu's kind of bad the good gu's kind of bad like everyone's just kind of middle of the road and there's no lessons and then you go out into the real world and you like at some point you're going to come across evil and you're gonna be like that can't be real yeah and in some ways I think that what's important to understand is that the evil just because people have reasons let's say to be evil we all have reasons to be evil but that doesn't justify the action it makes the evil still evil no matter what like even if you as a person had a difficult childhood or abused or whatever it is that you went through it still doesn't justify that you take that that you know and your your dad has talked about this he's talked about how you know if everybody who's lived some kind of abuse became evil you know we'd basically after a few iterations everybody would be evil that's not what happens actually most people that go through very difficult situations are able to somehow turn it for the best or at least a little like at least say oh I'm going to do better than my situation that I grew up in I'm going to do better than the the things I've experienced and then there are few people that see it as a way to justify their resentment as a way to justify their evil Behavior yeah for sure I think that's the one of the things I learned later um because I was always especially when I was not well I had a lot of compassion for people who went through difficult things um and and in just like I guess I was trying to understand like I had a roommate who was insanely awful like it was a bad situation my mom came in and met was like yeah he's crazy and left right although she left me there but anyway I had a number of rumage but he was yeah good luck out Welcome to the Real World um and I remember being like well his mom like I found out later his mom was really hard on him as a kid like things were bad in his household but he was also I think I was 19 at the time at a number of roommates I think he was 22 or 23 so he was one of the older people in the like res we were kind of in and I remember eventually thinking you're too old to use that as an excuse like you can't use it as an excuse everybody has an excuse yeah about why they could be bad why their life is hard or why their life is miserable but you can't make everyone else's life miserable because your life was miserable like that's not how it works yeah but I feel like I had too much I don't know why maybe CU my dad's so compassionate so like growing up I learned the reasons behind why people act the way they act um and I think it took me until my mid 20s to be like it doesn't matter at the end of the day it doesn't matter what happened to you yeah and also I think that in your case it's it's exemplary because you also suffered so much when you were a child and it could have been an excuse for you to become you know angry at life you know I I saw that too with other chronically ill people because when I like went to the hospital I would meet people that like this is like teenagers that are sick and they were really sick and I remember some of them were really angry and mean and I remember being like I know that that's cuz they're sick but like you can't do that they is just going to ruin their lives and I know dad told me that from a young age was like you got to be careful here that you don't end up seriously resentful yeah yeah yeah that's amazing I I had a sial her there was a young boy in my neighborhood when I was a child it's sad because I just remembered so much he was burnt he got burnt because he tried to light tou a light of fire with gasoline that's a child just melted right um and uh he wore this like plastic mask right go his face and stuff and he was just the worst bully I mean he was so mean you know um and I mean obviously it's understandable at that age but it's something to to think about you know because we were all scared of him and it was weird because you know it like he was he was embodying his own Act accident right it's like he looked really scary but then he was also really mean you know uh so I always it's weird because I don't know what happened to him but I always hope that he came to some peace at some point you know and kind of found some balance in his own life but yeah it's rough yeah we all have some people more than others obviously you know there's we all have a path down to resentment like towards resentment that's possible for us you know yeah yeah nobody doesn't right that's just part of what like being human yeah everybody can be bad pretty easily yeah and you can see it you know it's interesting to see in the fairy tales like like we talked a little bit about Stone white in stone white you can see that happening right to the queen where the queen starts to lose her charm starts to lose her beauty and then immediately becomes resentful and jealous and murderous ultimately I mean obviously it's this extreme but you know you you can understand how there are so many paths down that line where if you let your own desires or something take over know there are dark things down the road so you know it's important for as we raise our kids to always can I say this you know always help them understand that difficulty is is an opportunity to grow and sometimes because we can't help it right we're all going to have challenges uh but that's really the only way to look at it positive even though sometimes it's seems unsurmountable or impossible any other way to look at it from your own perspective leads to Dark Places you know yeah so where can people go to find your books okay so uh for now we're selling that on my store so people can go to the symbolic world.com and click on store we're we're selling them through our Shopify uh we're offering for people who are willing to sign up for our manil list right now we're actually off free PDFs of some of the books that we're publishing oh cool so we're just trying to kind of like gather energy we want you know we decided to do it this way because I've actually had offers to publish it with publishing but you know in this with the state of culture right now we just want to have control over what we're doing want to make sure that we don't have to seed any terrain that we can really tell the best stories and the most beautiful and also like we're non-compromised with the beauty you know we have so many illustrations in this book oh like it's not a normal level of illustrations for like a kids book we've had like at every page every other page we have illustrations and so we just wanted to do something and like the covers are like clothbound with you know gold foil you it would very difficult to get uh they're like OSS a normal yeah a normal publisher to do that but we we're trying to in some ways go against the grain of of just digital you know we have nothing against digital we have even we just put out a like a kind of semian animated Audi book of the snow book oh cool yeah it is really cool but we also want people to enjoy sitting in bed with their kids you know with the book in their hands and feeling that sense of kind of a pre almost like a precious object you know and helping the children kind of value know that some things have value yeah like the story has value but we treat the book with respect because it's also beautifully made and it everything so so that's kind of the the tack we're taking and the reaction has been really amazing people are are happy about it like I'm getting mess even like educators are writing me and saying you know that they've been waiting for books like this because the state of kids publishing is quite dismal yeah as a young mom I'm sure you've seen it yeah well I'm getting like most of the books I got for scarlet were like books I read growing up it was like pretty easy I just avoided anything after like I don't know like like 2002 like 1999 I don't know yeah yeah around there at some point it start to get really dismal you know yeah and it's not just like it's weird because it's it's a mix of things on the one hand there's a there's a kind of dumbing down in the stories and it's difficult because they dumb down a lot of the stories in order because they realize that this is more the level of the child that's listening but it's like why are you doing that isn't isn't your purpose to like accompany your child up the hill so if you just give them something that hits them exactly at the level that will in some ways give them the most little satisfaction of the moment you're not doing them a service you know the that's why the old fairy tales are the old stories for kids they're sometimes a little difficult they're they're pretty they're pretty intense and because you're you're also asking of the child to to uh to kind of make an effort you know I read and I remember when I was like 13 I read uh The Jungle Book right by udri udri Kipling and my teacher at the time said you know kids used to read that when they were 10 and that was like normal but it's a I mean it's not an easy book like it's I mean it's easy obviously for us for adults but like you're a 10-year-old to read something like that yeah and it shows you that we've we've in some ways dumbed down the story so much that and so what we've tried to do in our in our books is make sure that there's enough there for like even a four-year-old to to find it interesting to love the illustrations to just be attracted to the basic story but always have little things in it that will you know kind of point up so that you could read it again at 13 and go oh okay all right yeah I didn't notice that and then you can read it again at 40 or 30 or something and then also have that same experience where it's kind of push it's kind of pulling you up towards more insight about what these there's something of substance there that makes it way more interesting for the parents too if you guys ever consume alcohol ever it should probably be vodka but that's not what I'm talking about right now I drink probably once a month but this supplement eliminates The Hangover people in Japan have been using it for thousands of years and like the white man just doesn't know I hope YouTube doesn't suppress me for that anyway we managed to purify it and put a high dose in a pill so you get like half a Year's worth of this with one order if you don't drink very often it helps save your brain from the toxic effects of alcohol and if you like it please leave a review I love reading the reviews you guys know I don't push supplements because most of them are a complete waste of money this one isn't it has no fillers or extra ingredients and we have a 30-day money back guarantee so you're safe you could even try it and then complain and get your money back even if it works don't do that though please but uh give it a shot Fuller health.com enjoy the rest of this episode even finding recent movies to watch with kids is hard it's like there are some movies that are great like The Incredibles is a pretty good story the first Incredibles is pretty good and that's enjoyable in all ranges but a lot of the newer animated movies I'm just like this is terrible it's painful and terrible and like the old Disney movies didn't have that as much no the the old Disney movies were were done were made in a way again that would appeal both to the children you know and to the adult because they were beautifully crafted the stories were were well crafted as well the characters there were levels of depth kind of hidden under the The Superficial you know you you watch The Lion King and that's not even that old of a Disney movie right it's like the 90s and you can you know as an adult you really see all of these you know these deep patterns of Mythology and religious storytelling but as a kid obviously you just love the silly animals and you you know the the characters are well drawn so and if if only we could you know reawaken that type of Storytelling you know I I think it's probably I mean you're you're helping obviously I think it's happening we were talking the other day I read something online about how there's a Resurgence of bookstores he all the bookstores were closing I know in downtown Toronto a whole bunch of the big book stores I liked closed down because nobody was buying books especially during Co but people stopped buying physical books as much and Amazon of course wiped out a bunch of them but apparently they're opening up again I think people are really missing the like high quality tangible real real things yeah yeah and in some ways that's why I think we're aiming up with these books we're saying okay if someone is now being deliberate about that and is saying okay I love the feeling of the actual book in my hand sitting in bed you know that even the smell of the book a certain smell all of that I think then then we can say all right so let's let's make people happy like let's actually make nice books so that if they or if that's what they want then we'll give them something something powerful but you know it's like I hate reading on Kindle like I have one but I I really struggle I struggle too I kind of I like I kind of I kind of hate it I know people who love their Kindle too I kind of hate it I was so attached it's practical you can store a whole bunch of books it's way easier for traveling but I used to I don't know I got so attached to books as a kid like all my Nancy Drew books with the old covers and I was I just had I don't know more of an emotional connection because you spent time with the book it's weird because but you know my wife she doesn't she's not someone who read that much let's say when she was younger and uh you know I have these books in my library and she's like what you've read them right I'm like yeah she's like well just get why don't you get rid of them why are you keeping them and you're like oh why am I keeping the books that I've read already and you realize that the reason why you keep them is because you you spend time with these books there there's like a memory attached to them there's something about just knowing that they're there or seeing that they're there it's like a momento of the of the moment that I read it when I was younger that is so true yeah I wonder if you get the same thing with Kindle with the Kindle I would think I I probably a lot less I was reading this Kindle book under a tree at this certain time I don't know if the memories would stick as much I I definitely have that I have a whole bunch of books from Toronto in storage so I still have them but I have like an old Edgar Allen post set that I remember getting when I was like 13 off of eBay and it was really old I was like that was really cool yeah I missed those I got to get those out of storage obviously and it's odd because you think you know and then the book has a whole other life to it and there's something about that yeah yeah seeing people's notes in it too like that was 50 years ago yeah yeah I get it yeah and also it's weird because this these are very subtle experiences but you know the the like when you walk into your house you know you have this experience where you kind of scan the house and there's something about everything that makes you know your home right and it's very subtle like there's especially if it's in a home that you've lived in for a very long time like you know little creases in the floor like all these things that just kind of make you feel like you're home and I think that books do that too because you're just even without reading them you're you're in your living room and you just glance you glance at them you see them like kind of shimmering you know in the bookshelf and all of that presence makes you grounded it's like oh yeah this is my life like this is my life this is my home this is my place um that's a little difficult to you know explain but I think if you if people pay attention to it they can kind of see that that is the way that homes are made like we you know we keep pictures of our family members we keep pictures of of people we love um you know we put up things on the walls that have specific meaning to us um but I think books play that role too that's so interesting I haven't thought about that I've moved so many times like I moved I moved quite a bit when I was a kid like Mom and Dad moved a lot but then we were in a in a house like the house in Toronto for a good like 12 years until I I moved to Montreal but I've moved every 6 months since then wow except for in the last year when I moved just once in the last year instead of every six months but it it's been like so I haven't had that you know where all the Creeks are and like you can recognize I haven't like recognized a house since I was like 17 or 18 and I think in the last couple years I was like I don't need that maybe you don't need that yeah but then you talking about it I was like no I kind of maybe I do miss my Edgar Allen po books that I've been like trekking around from City to city in storage things like that but I think there's also a time for different things you know as your kids kind of grow up and you realize that they need that sense of home you know that they need let's say their room to have familiarity you know the old stuffed animals that the kids stay attached to even until they're teenagers they don't want to admit but there's like all of this of this sense of of home you know probably you'll also start to feel it again I think it's normal in your 20s when I was in my 20s we lived you know we moved around we lived in Africa for 7even years we were constantly moving and stuff and and we we in some ways didn't need that as much either and uh and then as our kids got older then that sense of Home became more okay so maybe it's an age thing Poss or having having kids thing well you'll see I mean you're you're in that moment now you'll kind of see it and you'll you'll experience it if if you know and your child sometimes will force you to some extent because children you know we tried with our kids very young we tried to keep them on that travel like we moved them around so much but at some point the kids themselves are tell you like you know I I want home I want pattern I want something stable like I like I like going into my room and recognizing things where they are things go in their place and stuff kids really thrive on on pattern they thrive on stability you know and then and if you offer them that then at some point they'll be ready for the adventure too right they'll be ready to go outside of their home and to to move out into the into the wild and have their own Adventures but and then come back and have that sense of memory like our you know in 2019 my house was flooded this massive accident where the Dyke in our town broke that's terrible and then within an hour we had to rush out of the house because the water was coming we could see it coming and the police were the sirens and you know they were they had megaphones and were telling everybody to get out of the house when we got in the car there was water under the wheels of the car you know and we left and then the the water filled the whole basement um and ruined our house pretty much yeah yeah um and so what happened well sorry what happened after that no how did that happen well because it's it's a it's one of those story that Jordan that your dad would would tell is that they built a dyke and they didn't they didn't keep it up and then once every once every you know decade once every 50 years or 100 years or whatever then there's a massive amount of water that comes that's why they built the Dyke in the first place because they knew the most of the time it was fine but then once in a while there would be the Surge and um and then the Dyke just broke cuz it had been kept up and then everybody's blaming everybody else and it's like the provincial government saying it's the fault of the city and the city's saying well we sent you a request for money but you didn't you didn't answer blah blah blah but and this is Quebec right yeah that is definitely Quebec so we're talking about 2 2500 homes you know around 10,000 people more than that czy evacuated yeah wow we lived out of our house for a year and a half and and then I lost my whole Library by the way like my entire library and my son lost everything that he owned you know and people live that when they get go through a fire and stuff and it's for my kids it is probably the single most traumatic thing that they went through and be and they they experienced what we call domicide right all of a sudden they thought that there was this place for them that was safe that they recognized that was home and then in one instant it was gone uh and uh they struggle with that like we strug struggle with the kind of mental health down Downstream with our kids for years you know and and my wife has been deliberate about rebuilding our house in a way that would be a home for them you know and going out of her way to like ask each of the kids like when we rebuilt the house and we rebuilt the rooms you know what would you like what what would would be something that would make make you feel at home there and she she went through she like went through crazy amount of effort to like get get the kids to be able to to go through that and and it it did help though and now we all feel like it's our it's our home but just did that take a while a couple years yeah it took a while yeah it took a while but it's important for people to understand that these things are are important you know that this sense of home it's not one that you can totally put your finger on like you can't say if I remove this or if I put this in then it's not home anymore it's more like a general just experience that kids have like obviously you don't have to keep things the same all the time like you can change your kids furniture you could like you can do that stuff but there has to there has to be some sense of consistency that your kids can still feel like this is where they belong you know definitely something to think about I like that well I'm not planning on moving again I've moved plenty of times I don't need to move anymore as long as no dikes break here it shouldn't happen I'm in a desert Haven it should be fine yeah what's the worst thing that can happen in Arizona monsoons happen oh okay mon monsoon season and and and things fled with that but not like you know Miami or something yeah so glad I'm out of there that was a crazy place to live um okay I've got I've got kind of a random question it's not fairy tale related but I wrote it down so my like my knowledge of Christianity is like from a Protestant perspective more and more like that's what I'm familiar with and that's what seems to resonate with me um why are I I know almost nothing about Saints yeah we were talking about Saints a bit yesterday I I know almost nothing about them other than kind of stories my dad would tell me when I was younger like St George and the Dragon like that's a story I know but I don't really know anything about Saints what's the purpose like why are they important if you have a relationship with Jesus H so we could we could phrase this in a in a few ways uh one of the aspects is that when Christ came into the world he seems not seems he he told us that that we would rule with him you know he told us that some ways we would become like Angels you know not become Angels directly but become something like angels that Angels also in the sense of just Messengers but angels in the angels in the sense of principalities right there's a there's a there's a sense in the Old Testament that God set up these principalities these angels in the world to kind of manage the world they were kind of like lower lower tier management you know and and the idea is that because of Christ then we are called to become that right to rule with him to sit in the Divine Council right to and and so one of the things we're seeing uh with the Saints is we're kind of seeing that happen already we're seeing some people that are very close to Jesus in some ways participate in the Kingdom with him so they it's not just like an individual relationship it really is a body and in the body there are some people that play roles um um and that's true in the world here but the way that the traditional Christians understand it is there isn't two churches there isn't like the church here and then the church in heaven let's say there's only one Church there's only one body right there's only one Christ and that body is United and the people that are with God like the people that are no longer in their bodies we don't understand them as being dead we think that they're alive that they're fully alive in Christ and participating in the salvation of the world like they are ruling with him already um and so that is a way to kind of understand what the sa the role that the Saints play and the other one is also related to intercession which is that in the Old Testament you really don't see intercession you don't see someone in the Old Testament like could you pray asking someone to pray for them it just doesn't happen it's not how it works in the old Testament it's like no go to the temple offer your sacrifice you know uh and then you know go to the common worship you know you sing your Psalms you do the you do the the rituals and that's just how it functions but one of the things that Christ brings about is the idea that we can pray for each other and that to pray for each other is already like I said to in some ways participate in the Kingdom of Heaven because the question you ask me about the Saints you could ask about intercession itself yeah I mean same question you say why are you why are you asking someone to pray for you like why would you ask your pastor or your mother or your friend to pray for you when you could just pray to God what's the point right and it's missing the entire point of what salvation is and what the church is which is that one of the aspects of the way in which we're going we're being saved is by the love we have for each other right it's by the fact that we are interceding for each other we are you know asking God to to uh and so in the way that so there are like little examples of intercessions in the Old Testament like a good example is when Abraham uh intercedes for the people of Sodom and Gomorrah right where he asked God like don't destroy the city and he's said God is like if I find so many just or whatever so in some ways now we all can play that role we can all pray to God and ask God to have mercy and ask God to help the our friends and to help others that that makes sense to me we also but then we also believe that there's no separation in the church so the the people that have shown in their life to be particularly close to Christ you know if you look at the apostles or you look at certain saints that they are in some ways the best people to pray for us you know in the in the Book of James it says that the prayer of the just is efficient that is a just person their prayers are more powerful than the prayers of someone who's just chaotic and messed up and that that's a real thing and so we know that St Peter or St Paul were just in the sense that they are close to Christ because we saw it in the testimony of their life until their death and they kind of showed it to us so that's the way to kind of understand the the it's like an extension of what Protestants understand to be the idea that we all pray for each other and that we ask each other to pray for each other it's just that we see it as a bigger and okay okay I I can understand that I think there was one line if I was more biblically literate this would be a much more interesting conversation but there was one line these Protestant saying Michaela say this Michaela say this why aren't you saying why aren't you quoting this verse I'm I'm I'm definitely not there yet there isn't there one line in the Bible oh my gosh let me see if I can Google it and and find it is it is it the inter is it there's one one mediator the mediator verse that says that there's only one there's one mediator to the father Jesus Christ yeah is our mediator so then how does that get around doesn't doesn't like praying to a saint to intercede on your behalf doesn't that get around that verse well so then the question you have to ask is why then does Christ ask us to pray for each other right why why is it that the people in the New Testament prayed for each other why is it that Christ healed people through St Peter and St Paul right why is it that St Peter could go to a person a crippled person and say I mean I guess my I heal you in the Name of Christ wouldn't that be because okay this seems like a silly response but wouldn't that be when they were on on Earth and then once they're in heaven you just go directly to Jesus like like honest question that's what I would see the difference as obviously I don't know how it works in the spiritual realm so how can I say this like the verse itself if what it means is that we only go straight to Jesus and we don't go through anybody else then it doesn't matter whether they're in the world or outside of the world like you we do say we do go to other people like you know we do ask other people for help we do ask other people to pray for us and but the way we have to understand it okay you're saying it's e it's either or you either have no mediator or you yeah or you have or you have any mediator and so the way to understand is that it's not that the med the the mediation let's say we could use that word we could use other words or intercedes the intercession of the Saints and the fact that some people are vehicles for the love of God to us so good way to understand it it's like something that mediates is something that is in between so you have God and you have you and you have something in between but every time someone every time someone shows the love of God to you right they are in in a in a in a way mediating that love but it doesn't remove the fact that Christ is the only mediator to the father right Christ is the only mediator to the father and to the extent that we are in Christ we participate in his life and we participate in his ministry and we pray for one another in the way that he prays for us to the father it's like that is just it's like it's an extension of the idea of the in some ways of the Kingdom you know like of that the church is a kingdom in which we all God gives us these authorities God gives us the power to pray and to mediate his love for others and it's a wonderful beautiful thing because it's not about just me and God it's about this whole body coming together in love and in forgiveness and in prayer uh in order to kind of lift each other up um but it doesn't at least for the traditional Christians it doesn't change anything to the fact that we understand that a way to understand it would be like you have the father and the son descends and then the son becomes the Anchor Point and then we are called to participate in the life of the sun we're called to be his body we're called to be the the continuation of that Ministry in the world um but it doesn't take anything away from Christ and and if you read like the the the prayers to the Saints most of you know if you read the prayers to the Saints you'll see that we always acknowledge their place we always say like we actually don't say to Christ pray for us because we pray to Christ you know and he is kind of stands you know in the presence of the father and kind of brings our prayers but we don't we don't ask him to pray for us because he is God but we ask the Saints to pray for us and that's how we ask them to help us is we say pray for me and sometimes like we have there are some let's say prayers to the Saints or songs to the Saints where we celebrate them where we say but usually if you look at the structure of the celebration it's always something like I don't know we say you know we we we're grateful for St Peter for what he's doing and we thank God for making St Peter who he is you know and we thank St Peter for helping us see God better and so it's like yeah the order is pretty clear we're not treating St Peter as a God we're basically saying we're so grateful that we have these characters that are like bright lights that help us see the the the the love of God the will of God in particular spheres and particular areas you know so that's the way to understand it okay cool well that helped that's interesting there's so many I don't know I've been it's very it's it's all very interesting but I understand this is definitely like all the a lot of the people that are listening that are very they Protestant Evangelical I understand that they'll struggle with that that they'll that they'll resist it you know and it's understandable uh but I would say that the the best way to get at it is to understand that although God has saved us completely and truly through through Christ and through the Incarnation that the people around us can still become little mirrors for God's love for us and then that is not a bad thing it's actually a beautiful wonderful thing that fills creation up with God's love you yeah I can get behind that I think I know I think that's right I think that's very right okay well that answers that question I'm going to have to think about that for a while yeah probably I like I I get the Protestant argument you know I I think part of what I've heard is but which you already addressed is isn't praying to Saints treating them more like an idol like why not go directly to Jesus but I can also see where you're coming from with like I like I get it I can I can understand both sides but the thing so but this is important to understand and in some ways it's related to the Jack and the beanock story actually interestingly enough that's related to this idea of the Gian which is that God has set up an order in the world right and then you could call like an order procession of his love into the world and there are people like authorities like pastors or priests in the Old Testament you know priests and Prophets that are somehow chosen by God to be vehicles for God's grace for God's message for God's for kind of showing what God's will is now and that is completely normal it's a wonderful thing now the problem that happens is that anytime someone is put in a position like that there is a danger that they do become idols and that's that's a real thing right so a good example of course is in the story of Moses and Aaron right so Moses is called by God God calls Moses and says you are going to save the people out of Egypt you're going to take them out of Egypt you're going to bring them in bring them out and they're going to be my people and I'm going to give them my law and they're going to be my people and Moses is like I can't do it on my own I need some help I'm not I'm just not not the guy I'm just not the guy so God actually accepts to give him Aaron and it's weird the way it's said in the text it's actually almost scandalous if you think about it because God says to Moses he said I will be your God and you will be Aaron's God and he uses the word god you oh wow yeah yeah and so obviously it doesn't mean that Moses was a God just to understand it's like it's saying you you will receive from me and then he will receive from you and then he'll be like your voice he'll be speaking out to you so so Aaron has this kind of intermediary position right this kind of is he's kind of like a mediator you could say towards the people uh but then as soon as Moses kind of goes up the mountain what does Aaron do he makes an idol yeah and so he kind of as soon as he's separated from his Source he makes an idol that's a good way to understand it so that's why you know everybody complains about the pastors and the priests who become corrupt and become but it's the nature of the world that people who are put in Authority put in positions of Power are in danger of be of trying to take that power for themselves like the Giants right to like gather that power for themselves and to become arrogant and to want to receive the honor themselves and so we have to be of course wary of that necessarily we always have to be aware of that we also have to understand that it is also the way that the world works that that it is also the way that God functions that God chooses people that God points to people that God lifts people up and makes them you know vehicles for his work uh and so we we just have to be you know innocent as doves and wise as serpent we have to be attentive you know when we see a Spiritual Authority or we see a character who tries to take that power too much for themselves or you know starts to act in in ways that are a little narcissistic or a little kind of power hungry and then be able to kind of turn away from that but in the case of the Saints what we have are people that fought the fight until the end right that basically ran the race until the end and the testimony of their life has remained impeccable and shiny so we know that they're no longer in danger of taking that power for themselves it's like if you ask St Peter to pray for you he's no longer in the danger that your local Pastor or your local priest is yeah he's sitation I'd like to I don't actually know the like Protestant argument for like why do we ask other people to pray for us but don't ask Saints and my guess was because other people are living but I literally have no I like I'm so new in this I don't even know what people would AR one of the that's the argument but the answer is that they're they have eternal life yeah okay like they're not dead they are alive very much very much alive in Christ that if you if you believe if you live in Christ then you then you will not die okay here here's another question then this is this doesn't really have anything to do with well maybe a little bit to do with that so I was trying to figure out in in Revelation like what what happens biblically well well just biblically what what do people believe like what happens when you die is there this period before Jesus comes back where you're kind of asleep MH but then or do you just go directly to heaven so I mean I know no one can like know okay yeah so we have to be very cautious in when we talk about these things because obviously many of the things that are portrayed are extremely imagistic yeah and and imagistic for a reason because we're talking about things that we can't completely see we see through a veil yeah that's for sure and so when uh for example when Christ describes The Story of Lazarus and the rich man he describes the story of someone who is just Lazarus who goes into the bosom of Abraham which is already like if you think this is literal like you know you have a bit of an issue like he goes back into the Abraham's body like he goes back into his bsom no it's like that's not what it that's not what it means it it kind of means he goes back to his ancestor he goes back to the he goes back to An Origin that precedes him he's kind of entered into into something that is more than him maybe that's a good way of understanding it and then the rich man who never had any sympathy or any care for Lazarus is put into a place of of suffering and of fire and so you can see that in Christ's Parable he seems to be suggest that there is it's not like Soul sleep Soul sleep doesn't seem to be it doesn't seem to be what he's suggesting here you know and the same with the with the the the thief on the cross it says I'll see you today be with me in Paradise right of course Paradise in heaven are not the same thing we could talk about that if you want to but that's not the the point is to say that that that at least traditional Christians there there was that discussion about that you because uh St Paul uses the term uh those that have fallen asleep in the Lord and that some people have taken that to mean something like Soul sleep but ultimately ultimately the church because of those other examples yeah have come to the conclusion that no we let's take Christ's words over Paul's as a way to understand Paul and that in fact we don't believe in that so the the but then the way that people T attempt to understand it is that in some way there's a particular judgment and a universal judgment that when you die you're judged particularly and then in the end there's like a great judgment that it's like the entire Cosmos is is Judge the final judgment and in some ways those two things I think the best way to understand them is that they're two aspects of the same of the same thing you know uh that the Judgment that you go through after you die is not going to be different from the Judgment at the end like it's the Judgment of you basically you know when you all through your life you have the possibility of change right that's what life is for you can change you can change you can change but once you get to the end then that's it that's you like you boxed up you're boxed up like this is Michaela and you see yeah that's scary yeah that is scary you got to get on top of it right now that is scary that's why that's why there is an urgency to to basically orienting oursel properly you know and and understanding that our that understanding that our priorities need to be in the right place uh because there is this and it's not like a this is something that everything is like that like everything is judgment it finishes you don't you tend not to judge something while it's happening it's like you watch a movie and you kind of maybe you like it you don't like it but you're like I'm going to withhold judge unless it's really horrible but most of the time like I'll withhold judgment and then when it's over then it's like okay now I have the whole movie yeah now I can tell you if it was a good a good or a bad movie and I think that's the way to understand people's lives it's like once you're done you you this you've had this has been the chance for you to kind of Orient yourself properly and so that's that tends to be the way that it's understood is that then there is some kind of particular judgment that happens once you once you die but it's a but it's a continuation of you like it's not this is something that at least at least for more traditional Christians we kind of understand is that when you die you're not going to become another person right if you if you are still attached to certain sins really strongly or attached to certain passions very strongly then the fact that your body stops functioning does isn't going to take that away and so that's why also you kind of have to get through this stuff when you're alive because when you die then it's going to play out you could say a good way to understand it it's something like your body is actually a limit to the worst aspect of you right let's say you become you you let yourself become really really vengeful and resentful you know and in your life and you don't deal with that you don't forgive you don't deal with that you just keep it boiling um your body is actually a limit to that because your body will prevent you and the the the reality of the physical world will prevent you from going to the end of your desires but once your body is gone then the the limit's gone too interesting so then the the desire becomes something like a fire that burns you because because you can't you know it's it's like imagine imagine you're hungry but you can't your body can't eat but you you're you're obsessed with eating it's something that has that has let's say taken over your life where it's like it's your only pleasure it's your only joy it's the thing you that you centered on and once you once your body's gone then then it's like a fire that Burns you it's a good way of understanding it like it's a good way of understanding why we describe how the way we do I I mean yeah yeah that's a good way of visualizing it and so it's it's actually love that's burning you in hell right it's also a good way of understanding it it's like we we're asked to love the right things in our life we're asked to properly order our loves you know and so you should love God you should love your neighbor you should love your family you should love the the people around you and you are allowed to love beautiful things you're allowed to to to to have some type of let's say um not just allow but it's good to enjoy a good meal or to have a good time or to like all these things are good it's just they have to be in the right order and that's all it is is that if you the sin is when you put loves in the wrong order right because it's like sex is a good thing it's when it's in the wrong place that it becomes a problem when you put it above the you know if you put sex above let's say the true love of a family united then all hell breaks loose then all things then people cheat on each other then everything becomes crazy and so that's the way to understand it but it's love that burns you in hell because it's the fact that you've you've so you could understand some sometimes this is even extreme but some of the Orthodox uh Saints have said that the fire in hell is the love of God and that the the love that the fire of Pentecost right the fire of the holy spirit that comes down on the on the disciples that it's the same fire that's burning in hell it's just that if you love the proper thing like if you love God if you love others if you forgive if you if you live a life that is transparent to God then the fire will will consume you in the right way will like bring you up right will kind of push you up into that that's so interesting and so you see that like there's a lot of there even some Modern like CS Lewis talks about that he kind of presents heaven and hell that way I think it's the best way so like the same kind of the same place but people react to it differently Bas based on their aim almost based on exactly based on their based on what it is that they love wow that's cool yeah so think about it like a good way of understanding it too I i' I've used this example which is that imagine that you do something really horrible to someone right and and then that person answers you with love and so you're faced with this person this person basically forgives you welcomes you with open arms and in that moment you have two choices but you can accept that or you can refuse that you can let it go and you can move into the Embrace or you can say you can be even more angry at the person even more resentful and then that person's love is will burn you it's like St Paul talks about you know coals being shoveled on your head and and that's a that's a that's a real thing you know people experience that experience that all the time and it's the same again with any love that we have we could already experience hell a little bit in this world when we don't get what we want and then we get angry and then we let that kind of consume us and it's like especially if what you want is your dinner on time or whatever or some ridiculous like some ridiculous detail about life that really is secondary and when you let that consume you it's like that's love consuming you that's love burning you but it's the wrong love it's the love that's pointed in the wrong direction you know because you really want that you know I don't know whatever it is that you want you you can't get it so it's you're you're touching hell there wow crazy you said CS Lewis talked about this a little yeah there's a he has a book called The Great divorce a beautiful book it's kind of like his version of uh Dante's uh comedy where he oh really yeah it's it's different but in some ways he he gets taken into the the into the Afterlife or into the the world of of Heaven and Hell and his um his guide is actually George McDonald which is hilarious George McDonald is is one of the Great Fairy Tale uh writers in the in the in the history he kind of precedes CS Lewis in that fantasy type storytelling and even toi too oh wow so yeah he's a great George McDonald is wonderful I haven't heard of George McDonald people people don't know him that well but he really is at the kind of at the outset of what we think of today as kind of modern fantasy and modern yeah and so that's his guide in the afterlife and he and then CSS really explains how in fact hell is something that people do to themselves you know so for example like a good example it's basically saying like in the afterlife you get everything you want kind of like that but sometimes would if you don't want the right thing that you'll also get it and so he explains how there's a place in hell where people uh it's as big as you want like it's it's huge and you can have an amazing house right so people like build these amazing houses but then what happens is that they get in a fight with their neighbor and so then they like they can do whatever they want so they build their house further away from that neighbor because they don't want to fight but then like you know then they fight with the other neighbor and the other neighbor and then what they do is they keep building they're a beautiful mansion further and further away from each other and then at some point like they're millions of miles from each other and just living in their beautiful mansion completely alone without any relation without any friends without anybody around them and basically just living in that kind of frustrated resentment you know so it's like this idea that yeah you can get anything you want but if you don't want the right thing I've definitely heard of this before like I I've heard of that idea I wonder if it was from CS LS or is this idea propagated in other ways I've definitely heard of the hell being you have everything you want yeah I think that it's an IM it's a story it's an image that it's also um it's propagated in different ways Dante in his in his book he he basically suggests that He suggests that the people in Hell want to be there like if you go to hell it's because you want to go to hell it's not it's not it's not that God is just putting you there arbitrarily because you for this or that reason yeah it's because you you're living in a in a pych in a passion that devours you so there's one image in Dante's Hell For example where it's two lovers you know that basically cheated on their spouse to be together and they they're so caught up in their own in their passion for each other that they're like they're like the swirling flame that never stops and they have nowhere to rest and they're they're like just kind of dancing in this fire and they got what they want you know but they they're they were they became drunk on it and it consumed them and now it's a form of suffering yeah wow that's dark I need that's that's hor horrifying I need to familiar familiarize with myself with that I wanted to find somebody on uh Peterson Academy to do Dante yeah that would be good and CS Lewis all those would be amazing they're really the foundation of Western Civilization I got a great guy for Dante if you're interested oh you do yeah yeah I'll talk we could talk about it okay okay fantastic and I love I mean really excited about what you're doing Peterson academy by the way thank you and uh it's astounding I mean it's really you know I remember when you when the dates you know when like it wasn't happening and like you kept putting off the dates I was like what's going on I hope everything's okay I hope everything's okay we had a rough summer but then but then when you when it came out then I was like okay they wanted it to be perfect like they wanted to be just great and it turns out that that's the that's the case and yeah he guys are do a great job and I think that there's a really is a possibility to use that to kind of reset some of these stories like to kind of help help people recapture some of the things that we've forgotten and Dante is one of them I mean Dante the the comedy is one of the greatest texts ever written and so when people don't know it people have just read people just read The Inferno yeah everybody just reads the help part you know because it's closer to us we understand the help part isn't that weird we totally understand the help part but it's like we don't actually we just we just we did our own version of a Dante class on the symbolic world and uh we did we just did purgatory and ah it's beautiful it's actually amazing it's actually better than hell like you know because it's this mountain that goes up to the Earthly Paradise you know and there are way more insight like really powerful insights in that so yeah it's worth anybody who hasn't read the comedy you have to read the comedy it's one of the things you have to read okay we'll talk about that after this podcast and if people want to find you they should go to the symbolic sybol world.com and like I said if you if you want just sign up for our mailing list we're trying to kind of trying to consolidate people so we can keep them informed and we offer we're offering free PDFs of some of the books these books are really nice though to phys obviously that's what we also think that see some of the digital versions they'll just want to get the real thing CU Hefty and like heavy Pages well printed like everything about it is complete how can I say we like end Pages you know we just really took took the the time to uh you can tell as well as we could so and we're going to we're going to put out six more at least so that's so cool every six months that's the goal really every six months yeah oh that's pretty quick yeah so next one we already the next one is already half half finished we're doing Rapunzel nice and then we're doing uh the valent little Taylor trying to do oh girls and boys and then one of the things you can already kind of get get the idea is that one of the things we're doing is that we're actually going to bring the stories into each other and so we're going to tell the actual story so you can imagine that if the story of the valent little Taylor is also about Giants and so it'll be a connection with Jack like there'll be this connection that's going to appear in the story so I think that'll be fun for people that is fun yeah yeah a box set would be lovely these individual ones are beautiful yeah congratulations they look great thank you for the copies no no you're welcome thanks I appreciate it well thank you very much for coming on thanks Michaela it nice to see you again it's great as usual n [Music]

Pageau’s back with a new book!

Jack and the Beanstalk retold

Deeper symbolism of Jack and the Beanstalk

The moral implications of Jack stealing from the giants

Giants as real-life villains

Life lessons hidden in fairy tales

Good vs. evil: Why it matters

Hardship isn’t an excuse for evil

The importance of preserving traditional storytelling

Reviving fairy tales

Books as symbols of home and memory

The deeper meaning of ‘Home’

Why are Saints important?

Mediators of the love of God

Hell is the sins you haven’t rectified

God's love reflected in community and creation